KK: how many bets go in, and when?

[topspin]

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The way you play it however - I definitely find a fold on the turn. UTG+1 is playing like he has AA and is really excited by that fact, or a boat (very unlikely). You don't do well against either hand and the player behind looks like he thinks his hand if pretty good too. You have two pair and most likely two outs.

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With the size of this pot and the nature of this board, I don't think you can fold this turn for 2 back to you. A lot of overpair hands play like this, and only one overpair beats us.

[tiltaholic]

i think you should raise the flop only because UTG+1 might get afraid of you and CO on the paired board and forget to lead the turn.

hopefully they didn't have AA.

[akebono]

Partially Grunching,

I don't get why we're not popping the flop here. I'm expecting to see QQ and JJ out there and if AA is out there then good for him. Maybe suited aces for MP1 and MP2. If CO is holding AK or AQ, I'd like to give him more incentive to bow out now. Plus I'm still thinking it's a lot of value.

If CO goes away then Turn and river are easy call downs. If CO sticks around then or is the one who caps the flop instead of UTG+1, then I may start considering AA.

On the turn I call UTG+1's lead bet, planning to call down. When it's 2 more back to me, I seriously consider folding. Don't think I would though.

[akebono]

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Raise the flop for value.

There's no likely hand to protect against on the turn. There's no guarantee UTG will bet it again and other than an Ace, you can't be upset with any turn card. Waiting doesn't make sense.

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Raising the turn is for value too - we collect 2BB rather than 2SB. We're almost certainly ahead on the flop (AA is the only reasonable hand that either preflop raiser could have here; there's also a very small chance one of the col-callers hit trips).

I also disagree that there's no protection value in raising the turn. There are two players to act behind us, either of which is correct to call 2 SB with a naked ace of a 2. If we call the flop and raise the turn, both those hands (assuming an A or a 2 doesn't fall on the turn) are making an error by calling.

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I think there may be a problem in thinking about this situation too mathematically. If the naked A could see your hand then they'd be correct to call 2SB vs. you. If they have to consider 2-3 players, they are more likely to give credit to AA and incorrectly fold. If I can induce an error from a player early, I'd like to try. (i.e. Errors on the flop reduce the number of players, increases our equity and make later streets easier. Errors on the turn add value bets to the pot, but we could just be helping to feed AA.)

Once we get rid of the riff-raff with naked A's, I'm only expecting to see high PP's. Mainly AA or QQ, so it's pretty much 50/50 for calling down or capping the rest of the way. With the pot already gigantic, I try and call down.

[OXIO]

Grunch:
Why not raise the flop?
Seems like quite some overpairs there and turn did not really improve anyone. Anyways, given the amount of aggression that was seen on the turn, i guess you played the river fine.

[Darth_Holdem]

UTG+1 seems happy since hole cards. I'd wonder by the turn.
Did he not do this before (bet all the way)?
I'd say he had pocket Aces, but he could end with set or fh, but unlikely since his bet preflop.

I'd probably bet flop also

What was the result??????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Fantam]

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I think you played it fine here. Raising the flop is not likley to get anybody with a A3 or A4 to fold. Raising the turn is good. The pot is too big to fold, you are pretty much tied to it. Hope your hand held up.

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I like this post.

Waiting for the turn to raise gives weak drawing hands incorrect odds to call, and makes it more likely for them to fold than if OP had raised the flop.

Raising the flop when it is huge like this gives the weak drawing hands correct odds to call on both the flop and turn.

[djhoneybear]

I just don't think there are any weak drawing hands out. Either someone has AKs and is drawing to the flush or everyone has a high pocket-pair.