KK: how many bets go in, and when?

topspin · #1 03-12-2006, 10:03 PM

Been at the table for a few orbits now. Table is moderately aggressive preflop (it's often 2 bets to see a flop) with lots of limping and cold-calling. No one's gotten too out of line postflop yet.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (24.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (26.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 29.25 BB

Hielko · #2 03-12-2006, 10:34 PM

I would fold the turn when it's 2 back to you. Your probably drawing to two outs and you don't know how many bets you will need to pay for a showdown.

grapabo · #3 03-12-2006, 10:37 PM

Because UTG+1's raise was capped by the time it got back around, it's hard to tell what the preflop raise meant. Ditto for the raising behind you.

I wouldn't necessarily assume aces (and even less so fives or deuces), so I would have raised on the flop to see if these hands like AK or AQ might go away. There's no realistic drawing hand to a straight or flush, so I would assume that the Kings were good on the flop unless future information says otherwise.

With fewer players on the turn, it might become more manageable to figure out whether you're beat or not.

Kwaz · #4 03-12-2006, 10:38 PM

Raise the flop for value.

There's no likely hand to protect against on the turn. There's no guarantee UTG will bet it again and other than an Ace, you can't be upset with any turn card. Waiting doesn't make sense.

Other than that, you play goot.

Hoss Ballgag · #5 03-12-2006, 10:50 PM

Raise the flop. Then just call the turn and the river. The chances of a 2 or a 5 out there are decent, but you also have to figure that these cards aren't usually what people are holding when they cold-call raises. So, generally, I think you are behind on this hand, but your kings may still be good. You could be up against a QQ (another capping hand) but since this pot is so gigantic, it is worth 2 BB to showdown if you feel that you have any chance at all of winning...and you do.

Jago · #6 03-12-2006, 10:51 PM

i would really raise flop

SoftcoreRevolt · #7 03-12-2006, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Then just call the turn and the river. The chances of a 2 or a 5 out there are decent, but you also have to figure that these cards aren't usually what people are holding when they cold-call raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

They didn't cold call raises. They raised and capped preflop. The chances of them having 22 or a 5 are very small.

djhoneybear · #8 03-12-2006, 10:59 PM

Raise and cap the flop. If he comes out firing on the turn you decide whether you want to go to showdown (call down) or whether you raise/fold. I like raise-fold as your raise might knock out some players and get you a free showdown. This requires some read on the opponents involved.

The way you play it however - I definitely find a fold on the turn. UTG+1 is playing like he has AA and is really excited by that fact, or a boat (very unlikely). You don't do well against either hand and the player behind looks like he thinks his hand if pretty good too. You have two pair and most likely two outs.

Pocket77s · #9 03-13-2006, 01:10 AM

I think you played it fine here. Raising the flop is not likley to get anybody with a A3 or A4 to fold. Raising the turn is good. The pot is too big to fold, you are pretty much tied to it. Hope your hand held up.

topspin · #10 03-13-2006, 10:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop for value.

There's no likely hand to protect against on the turn. There's no guarantee UTG will bet it again and other than an Ace, you can't be upset with any turn card. Waiting doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn is for value too - we collect 2BB rather than 2SB. We're almost certainly ahead on the flop (AA is the only reasonable hand that either preflop raiser could have here; there's also a very small chance one of the col-callers hit trips).

I also disagree that there's no protection value in raising the turn. There are two players to act behind us, either of which is correct to call 2 SB with a naked ace of a 2. If we call the flop and raise the turn, both those hands (assuming an A or a 2 doesn't fall on the turn) are making an error by calling.