Pot Odds and Flush Draws

[Buzz-cp]

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Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

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am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

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evidently I've confused 2 people. I'm saying I like his river raise.

[Bigka79]

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Flop is a raise. If you read SSHE, then you should be aware of juicing flush draws and the free card play.

There is definitely room for a raise on the river.

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am i reading this wrong or what. he did raise the river and didnt have the ability to raise more. i think it was played fine except for the flop

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[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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still missing it i think sorry


Edit: got u now just read ur other post sorry

[sparky3474]

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Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.02/$0.04
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(13:1)</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds, Hero calls <font color="aaaaaa">(9.5:1)</font>, SB calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (11.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: 17.5BB

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In this hand you should know you are going to want to see the turn and the river, you are drawing to a nut flush and a straight flush, at least 10.5 outs. Prior to the turn you only need the pot to contain 1.6 times your bet to be profitable, if the turn misses you, and it did you will now need 3.6 times you bet to be profitable in the long run. Most of the time the pot will be offering good odds to draw to a flush when you need one card.

[albster440]

raise the flop.
re-raise any when your draw comes through on the river. make an unhappy call if you are 3.

[Bulletproof Monk]

overcalls guys overcalls.....

[bozlax]

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overcalls guys overcalls.....

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Pfah:

Everbody folds to your raise: 0bb
Two folds and the original bettor calls: 1bb
One call, two folds: 2bb
One call, one fold, one call: 3bb
Two calls, one fold: 4bb
Three calls: 5bb

vs.

One overcall: 1bb
Two overcalls: 2bb

In half the scenarios after you raise you're doing better than you can possibly do by calling, and one more you're tying, and the last 4 possibilities taken together are easily more likely than the first two.

QED ERE

[detruncate]

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To be fair, OP is asking about pot odds, which is a pretty basic concept we don't tend to run through in here.

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Are you serious? I have personally written a half dozen or so extensive posts explaining pot odds to micros over the years. Most people who have been around a while should be able to say the same thing. Likewise pf charts, bankroll questions, table selection, etc.

Maybe the beginners forum has gotten more popular and/or the library has removed most of the need, but it's always been the intermediate guys who have taken care of this stuff for the beginners. They have traditionally been eager to pitch in given that they were asking similar questions a relatively short time ago, and the act of articulating something helps the teacher explore concepts they may still be applying imperfectly themselves.

I'm not addressing this to you personally by any means. I was just surprised by your comment. I haven't spent a lot of time here lately, but I caught a whiff of the unmistakable stench of that stupid HUD vs "real read" argument almost immediately (must be version 1874896075 by now), so things can't have changed that much. And the traffic is much lower than it used to be, so it's not as if the place is being overrun by beginners.

I'd suggest that intermediate posters have a little more patience. Go look through some of your own early stuff if you're in need of motivation to pitch in. Everyone gets to the point where they'd prefer to spend their time exchanging feedback with more advanced posters, but it's disrespectful to all those who spent time helping you along to shortchange a person with honest questions, however basic, provided they have a good attitude.

Though, of course, that doesn't mean anyone should stop making fun of people who whine about their 30 BB "downswing." Fun is fun. And we all need a kick in the ass sometimes.

[Rant]

You would think that some of the other posters were never beginners. Sheesh! 2p2 has become less and less friendly.


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The flop hit me and I had 9 outs (flush draw), and pot odds were 13:1 on the flop, where on the chart should I be looking at to figure out if I should call or fold?

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You probably have more than 9 outs. You are pretty likely to win if an A comes. Anyway, you can look up 9 outs in the bottom of the chart (either side) to get a basic idea of the odds that you will need.

The chart says 4.1:1 with one card to come and 1.9:1 with two cards to come.

You clearly have odds to at least call the flop bet. You are getting 13:1 and you only need 4.1:1 to see one more card.

I would recommend ignoring the 'turn'/'2 cards to come' numbers until you understand the 1 card odds.


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Also did I play this hand correctly? Players were pretty loose-passive (had about 30 hands each on them and around 40-60 VPIP). Since I had the 2nd best hand I was worried about someone having it since it was possible because the players were loose. Am I thinking about this the right way? Any comments you guys want to make?

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I agree with the many responses that you should have raised the flop. I'd be raising here more for value than to get a free card. With 5 players still in and a loose table you are unlikely to get the free card. On the flop 3 players have already put in a bet. They are very likely to put in a 2nd bet if you raise. This is good for you because you are likely enough to win this hand that this is a good outcome - you put in 1 extra bet and your opponents put in at least 3 (assuming BB, UTG, and CO call).

You are very, very likely to have the best hand on the river. What beats you? K3, 23, 83, KK, 22, 33, 88. That's not a lot of hands. Only 22, 33, and 88 are likely holdings. No one probably has 22 or 33 because they would have played the hand more aggressively. You should raise the river because you'll get paid by a lesser flush MUCH more often than you'll lose to a full house.

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions and don't want to get flamed by the jacks on this board.

[sparky3474]

timeonepointzero, Nice job on the chart, I know it is a lot of work to get it sorted out, the text in SSHE has you going in circles at times. Are you connected with the guy who made the chart? Can you explain the meaning of the column labeled R4 in LP Loose? or is there a key for C4, C3 and C2? C2= Call if 2 otherwise fold? I actually contacted Ed Miller about an inconsistency in the chart on AQo and 99. The chart says in MP raise either hand against a single raise yet in LP he recommends calling. His response was it was glitch and he would recommend 3 betting both situations ie bet against a raise and a reraise.

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holy [censored] guys ...

just because my answers were short doesn't mean I'm ripping into the guy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
not once did i call the guy a retard or even say anything negative about his 'person'

i gave him simple direct ...

get some books ...
--&gt; he has books

--&gt; told him it's best not to play until he understands such a basic concept as pot odds (covered in full detail in each of the books he listed)

told him to stick with Lee Jone's book ... (much better for someone just starting than Miller's)

???
what is better ... do the work yourself or have someone telling you how they understand basic concepts

also ... i just checked ... that beginner's forum is still there (i read it for a while, prior to posting)

AND - if the someone could be put off and discouraged by my post here ... well, perhaps they should post here at all ... some of the posters are pretty rough (and many are not nice at all) ... but seriously, this is an online forum and words can be taken many many ways - I don't think filling your posts with a bunch of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] after every word you type is a very good solution

i've never personally see anyone on this forum explain basic (non-hand related) concepts .. I have seen such answers directed to the sources where a player can learn the basics themselves

but whatever [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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