I hate this spot

[vmacosta]

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In my mind in a 6 hand game a solid player is raising as wide as KTs+ UTG because he is one spot before the HJ now that the game is short. I think our definition of solid is different, your definition sounds overly-tight to me. JTo is an auto-call vs a real "solid" opponent pre-flop, I'm only letting it go when the opponent's opening range is ridiculously tight.

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UTG 6-handed doesn't have to be ridiculously tight to be a problem. Look at all the possible hands we don't want to go against: AJ, KJ, QJ, AT, KT, QT. This is what I mean by 2nd place hands. Flop top pair, lose more. Let's not even get into AA->TT.

Just to make sure I’m understood. I would grumble much less if OP called a hand such as T9s. You’re much more likely to have live cards, although I probably wouldn’t call this from BB heads up against a solid UTG raiser.

And I know this is results oriented, but I'm going to use this as an example anyways: OP is going against an overpair and paying off all three streets. Sick and leaky. I respect the OP's play plenty mostly based on past posts, but I think this was misplayed at least on two streets: pre-flop and the river. If you’re check-calling the turn, I think the river is a check-fold.

Another point: If villain is value betting QQ on the river, then he/she is probably value betting KJ and perhaps QJ as well. Again, this is not the type of opponent you want to face.

If the turn was bet and called, a check fold on the river would be much easier.

Another option that wasn't really seriously discussed was a turn check-raise. Wouldn’t this represent an option that would make things extremely difficult for any hand that doesn’t contain a spade?

Garland

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garland,
this post is a total spew. Do you ever use pokerstove (see below)? There is just no way calling jto preflop is a significant mistake. C/r'ing the turn is risky cuz an A never folds and lots of hands with big spades continue as well. Only better hands that fold are {kj,qj,qq,kk}-no spade and some of those hands chk behind or calldown the c/r anyhow. If we had a big equity edge it would be fine so I think you should stove it and enlighten the rest of us as to how much equity we have when we check and the villain bets the turn.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.095% 64.01% 01.08% 2485974912 41995254.00 { 55+, A6s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 34.905% 33.82% 01.08% 1313540052 41995254.00 { JTo }

[Garland]

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garland,
this post is a total spew. Do you ever use pokerstove (see below)? There is just no way calling jto preflop is a significant mistake. C/r'ing the turn is risky cuz an A never folds and lots of hands with big spades continue as well. Only better hands that fold are {kj,qj,qq,kk}-no spade and some of those hands chk behind or calldown the c/r anyhow. If we had a big equity edge it would be fine so I think you should stove it and enlighten the rest of us as to how much equity we have when we check and the villain bets the turn.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.095% 64.01% 01.08% 2485974912 41995254.00 { 55+, A6s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 34.905% 33.82% 01.08% 1313540052 41995254.00 { JTo }

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You can criticize me for my T8o limp in the other post. That's fine, I can admit a bad call. It was the postflop play I was interested in.

For one, I never said calling JTo was a significant mistake. Calling 32o is a significant mistake. This is an exaggeration, but you get the point.

There are several problems here:
(1) Pokerstove only gives you pre-flop odds. 65:35. Do you have odds to call? Yes according to the numbers. If that's the last small bet or less in your stack. That is the problem with using only pre-flop numbers.
(2) You're neglecting reverse implied odds. Look at all the monies shipped to the villain after the flop. Look at how well the villain played the hand. Why are you getting involved with a player who plays the hand well with a superior hand? I'm kind of surprised that this particular example didn't drive the point home. You might be thinking "I'm unlucky to be going against QQ", when in fact you're unwise to play this hand.
(3) The play after the flop was less than ideal. c/c, c/c, c/c. What can you hope for? I suppose a busted broadway/flush draw? I don't know about you, but I don't particularly like calling down unless villain has a proclivity towards bluffing all 3 streets. If you don't play well post-flop, this only worsens the situation.

Another point: Would I play this if the pre-flop raise came from the button or CO? Absolutely! Much bigger range here.

Please don't take this personally, but I remember you stating having a 500BB downswing. This is huge. Even at 300BB (which is supposedly the old standard "bankroll"), you need to be looking for leaks to plug and fast. If you think calling JTo in this situation is a no-brainer, I suggest looking for other places you can tighten up your pre-flop standards.

I highly believe that limit hold-em is a pre-flop game. What you choose to play pre-flop is the most decisive factor in winning or losing.

Garland

[vmacosta]

I dunno what to say, garland. I was trying to be helpful because the consensus is that you are wrong and I was trying to explain why. I have lots of leaks but i doubt if many of them are preflop.

[Garland]

vmacosta,

I hardly think the consensus is I'm wrong. There are several posters who think calling pre-flop is clearly correct, several who think it's clearly incorrect and many others including OP either on the fence or no opinion/neutral, just expressing how to play post-flop.

I am a math person, but I'll try to explain what I think you're expressing in words. You're trying to drive home an equity argument that seems compelling: You have the equity to call before the flop vs. villain's range and then on the turn and perhaps the river.

(BTW, I think you're being way generous with the suited As, T9s, JTs for a solid player UTG, but for the sake of argument I agreed with your range)

Other than flopping top pair vs an overpair and paying off to the river, my main thrust comes from avoiding domination, which I believe is one of the costliest mistakes a player can make. I just don’t think you quite realize how damaging flopping Jxx is when your opponent has QJ->AJ and plays well with position. I’m saying unless you flop gin or get lucky, you’re in a position to win a little or lose a lot post-flop. Seriously, I'd rather have 89o than JTo.

I’ll sum up my thoughts: I think calling JTo in this particular case vs. this particular opponent is a small mistake that will cost a small amount every time you play it. But these small amounts add up over time. Thus this constitutes a leak.

But you seem stubborn on this issue like me. That’s fine. Dialogue and debate is healthy. Whoever is “right”, I’ll let this issue die. This has been an interesting and thought-provoking thread.

Good luck,

Garland