I hate this spot
 

Live 40-80, the game was wonderful but all the fish left at the same time to spawn or something. Game has become terrible, is now 6-handed, and I'm sticking around in case some new fish show up when they call down the board, otherwise I plan to leave.

Decent player raises UTG(6-handed) and I call in the BB with JhTs

Flop is AsJd4s, we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain. What is your plan for the hand?

Re: I hate this spot
 

b/c flop. if he only calls flop, b/f non-spade turn...

Re: I hate this spot
 

Why should we donk the flop?

Re: I hate this spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
b/c flop. if he only calls flop, b/f non-spade turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

awful...

Re: I hate this spot
 

depending on villain: but c/r or c/f

Re: I hate this spot
 

I would c/c two streets and then play soul reading poker on the river. if I improve on the turn I'm check/raising, on the river i'm betting.

Re: I hate this spot
 

Either C/R or C/C

Re: I hate this spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Live 40-80, the game was wonderful but all the fish left at the same time to spawn or something. Game has become terrible, is now 6-handed, and I'm sticking around in case some new fish show up when they call down the board, otherwise I plan to leave.

Decent player raises UTG(6-handed) and I call in the BB with JhTs

Flop is AsJd4s, we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain. What is your plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot depends on the villain's range here. A quick look at PokerStove shows it may not be as bad as you think:

107,910 games 0.005 secs 21,582,000 games/sec

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.603% 40.36% 01.24% 43552 1342.00 { JhTs }
Hand 1: 58.397% 57.15% 01.24% 61674 1342.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }

So, if you close your eyes and blindly c/c every street, you're getting 4.5:2.5, or 1.8:1 in a pot where you're only a 1.4:1 dog. If you add something like QJo and JTo to villain's mix it's a bit worse but you're still only 1.5:1.

Villain's range might be looser, in which case you're even better off; he might check behind, in which case you're paying less (and are more likely ahead). The fact that you will reevaluate based on action and the cards helps more, of course.

I think the flop is c/c or c/r; I'd probably do the former unless he could let go a better J to your raise (seems unlikely, though).

Re: I hate this spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Live 40-80, the game was wonderful but all the fish left at the same time to spawn or something. Game has become terrible, is now 6-handed, and I'm sticking around in case some new fish show up when they call down the board, otherwise I plan to leave.

Decent player raises UTG(6-handed) and I call in the BB with JhTs

Flop is AsJd4s, we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain. What is your plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot depends on the villain's range here. A quick look at PokerStove shows it may not be as bad as you think:

107,910 games 0.005 secs 21,582,000 games/sec

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.603% 40.36% 01.24% 43552 1342.00 { JhTs }
Hand 1: 58.397% 57.15% 01.24% 61674 1342.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }

So, if you close your eyes and blindly c/c every street, you're getting 4.5:2.5, or 1.8:1 in a pot where you're only a 1.4:1 dog. If you add something like QJo and JTo to villain's mix it's a bit worse but you're still only 1.5:1.

Villain's range might be looser, in which case you're even better off; he might check behind, in which case you're paying less (and are more likely ahead). The fact that you will reevaluate based on action and the cards helps more, of course.

I think the flop is c/c or c/r; I'd probably do the former unless he could let go a better J to your raise (seems unlikely, though).

[/ QUOTE ]

as you check/call down, villain's range of hands becomes smaller and smaller so with each bet that goes into the pot your odds of winning become worse and worse. so while you're getting 1.8:1 to call down you're not going to be a 1.4:1 dog.

anyway, i don't like a flop c/r as a better hand almost never folds before the river and worse hands like pocket pairs only have two outs and often aren't calling down. but really, i'd just fold preflop.

Re: I hate this spot
 

I think anything but check-calling this flop (barring a super-nit read on opponent) is a bust.

I don't see why check-call, check-call, check-tankforanhourand makeadecision isn't right here.