Badly Played?

[pzhon]

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It's not uncommon for a pre-flop raise to be flat-called with AK.

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It is pretty uncommon for a player to limp with AK, and then call a raise. The OP raised from the big blind after several people limped in.

If you aren't happy with AQ on this flop after this preflop action, you are setting your standards way too high, and you just won't get enough monsters to avoid blinding down.

[thoman8r]

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Post-flop, this is standard.

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Exactly right, and you know what? Standard play is losing play. Most players are losers.

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No, it's standard for a winning player because betting is +EV.

[GeniusOrCrazy]

pzhon: No i was geniunely interested in whether i played this hand in the correct way. besides the odd game with friends for a couple of quid after a night out i have only been playing for about 2-3 weeks and the concept of pot odds and the thinking involved in betting etc are new to me. also please understand that i had always assumed that i had been playing the correct way which it now turns out i wasn't ;o) and if i had assumed this was correct and it wasnt then i would not learn. it has probably been a long time since you were a beginner but for me (and possibly others) finding out if a play was correct is equally if not more important than knowing if it was wrong when ur starting out. i take on board the view of not posting the results though and how this could look like i was just whinging, my future posts will not contain results.

to clarify then, i was especially interested in playing post flop with so many other players as most of what i have read only covers these situations against one other player. also as i was re-raised by the first person i did not get to see how my play would have worked out against the others.

cheers

[LiveInPeace]

It might be a winning play on a weak table. I very much doubt it would be a winning play on a reasonably strong table.

[LiveInPeace]

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It's not uncommon for a pre-flop raise to be flat-called with AK.

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It is pretty uncommon for a player to limp with AK, and then call a raise. The OP raised from the big blind after several people limped in.

If you aren't happy with AQ on this flop after this preflop action, you are setting your standards way too high, and you just won't get enough monsters to avoid blinding down.

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If a player limps with AK (which is not a rare play given AK) then they are unlikely to reraise. I believe flat calling a raise is much more common with AK than reraising especially in Nolimit where most people are scared to death at the idea of having their whole stack in on one pot. We know occasionally that people tend to slow play aces, well I think they slow play AK even more.

[pzhon]

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If you aren't happy with AQ on this flop after this preflop action, you are setting your standards way too high, and you just won't get enough monsters to avoid blinding down.

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If a player limps with AK (which is not a rare play given AK) then they are unlikely to reraise...


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First, it isn't very likely for AK to be out there. Second, it isn't very likely for someone to play AK that passively preflop. The limps and calls are evidence that AK isn't out there. It's not bulletproof evidence, but that's the way to bet, and it is not close. Third, the probability drops further when you see another ace on the flop, leaving only 8 combinations of AK instead of 12.

It's really strange that you are bringing up AK as a possibility and advising caution when no one else has shown any aggression in this hand (by the point at whicj you recommended checking). AJ and AT start with twice as many combinations, are more likely to be played passively, and will still pay you off here. People may be playing lower aces, too. You are more than twice as likely to be crushing someone with kicker problems than you are to be behind AK. You don't have room to find out whether you are up against AT, AJ, or AK until showdown.

Again, if you aren't willing to put your stack in with AQo on this flop with a stack that is not much larger than the pot, you are going to blind down unless you get hit by the deck. You don't flop quads very frequently, and you should recognize top pair, second kicker, as a very strong hand with these stack sizes.

[LiveInPeace]

But it's not just AK, that's just an example, it's also AA, 88, 44, A8, A4 or even another AQ offers no value. Any of these hands might be out among 4 callers to a raised pot. I rate the limp as some evidence that AK may not be out there, but not the flat call.

Bear in mind also that Hero is coming out betting from early position - 2nd in 5. He has no 2nd round information on the three players behind him when he makes his bet on the flop. If he were in late position then I would start leaning more your way and saying his flop bet was better.

A big problem arises if Hero is raised on the flop. Raiser could be holding almost anything, a draw, two pair, a set, nothing at all. To the raise that happened I think it was a close call whether Hero should have laid the hand down, depending on how the raiser plays. Not being a whole lot more money to call relative to the pot size is probably the only thing making it worth a call here. If the stacks were much deeper it's a definite lay-down to the raise IMO. That's another big problem to coming out betting, Hero puts himself in a position (this betting round) of potentially facing drawing dead for all his money instead of just a small portion of it.

[Infidelone]

You played it ok. you just lost. sorry,

[poker_bill]

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bill: i am not quite sure how i have given him odds to call me post flop by betting 400 into 500. is that that not 2.25/1 where he needs approx 4/1 to justify calling? i appreciate that he has the river too but i am not going to give him that for free if he did not hit on the turn

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No, fraid not. Pot odds are a right pain to understand, but once you got it, you'll make better plays and win more.

Basically, pot odds are the chances of making your hand vs what you the pot is paying you if you call.

Quick example, let's say the pot is $100, and there's two players to the flop. You're holding Ah 10s. The flop comes down Ac 9c 2d. You opponent checks to you. You figure him to be on a flush draw with two clubs.

There are 9 clubs left, and two cards to come, which means he should hit it 1 out of 3 times, or 1/3 of the time. This means that he will win 1 and lose two, or that he's a 2:1 underdog.

If you bet out $50, which makes the pot $150, he's getting 3:1 on his money. If you bet out $100, he's getting 2:1 on his money ($200/$100). As longs as his odds of hitting and the price the pot is paying is better or even, he's correct to call. In order to protect your hand and give him the wrong odds to call, you have to bet out more than $100. $150 to $200 would be about right.

I wish I could explain it better, but I'm not that good. If you google pot odd in texas holdem, there's a number of good articles on it.

[LiveInPeace]

And that's part of the problem... the "correct" amount to bet in order to push out the draws is quickly heading towards the amount that you will only get called with if you are drawing dead.