If you do this stop - Limit

[uDevil]

Edit: meant to reply to pzhon's post. My goal for the remainder of the day is to see if I can avoid misspelling my name....

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I believe these were the raw figures, which means the proper comparison is with losing 0.50 big bets/hand, the result of folding to raises.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's correct. The numbers are part of much larger tables that are included in the book. These appear to be exports from the Poker Tracker General Info tab.

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Sorry, that should have been, "Thanks! Interesting stats."

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You're welcome. As always, it's a pleasure to read your analysis.

[pzhon]

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I really do not understand why you are pushing this?

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Because you are not backing down when you should. You just keep stating things that have been refuted instead of recognizing the points made by AKQJ10, DanoMak, AussieBattler, elindauer, and others.

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I could make counter arguements all day long, but what is the point?

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You ought to ask yourself that. Why can't you admit that you were wrong, or at least walk away, when experienced players, statistics, and good poker books all disagree with you?

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If you are in love with weak hands, no one said _you_ can not play them did they?


[/ QUOTE ]
Suited connectors are speculative hands which are great in family pots. They are not weak, and folding them in the situation you mentioned would be a huge mistake. This isn't a matter of style. It's clearly wrong to fold a hand when playing it will win about 42 BB/100.

[ QUOTE ]

I am sure you have enough playing hours you do not consider yourself a beginner? Why are you wasting your time in a beginners forum arguing over a trival matter that should mean nothing to you with your experience but may be valuable to some beginners without your experience?

[/ QUOTE ]
Your bad advice was not valuable, but correcting it might be. The 2+2 forums stand out as a place to find good advice instead of fallacies, bad beats, and results-oriented nonsense. Part of that is seeing bad advice refuted.

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Do you want beginning players to fail, throwing away chips on hands that show a minimal to negative return?

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Why do you want players not to defend the blinds with hands that gain about 42 BB/100 when defending, and possibly more in family pots? 42 BB/100 is neither negative nor small.

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Or do you have a monetary interest in trying to make me look wrong?

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No. Do you have an interest in making yourself look wrong? If not, then don't give terrible advice.

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As far as what I read, not one responder considers themselve a beginner, so my post was not directed to them or you.

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It is the responsibility of experienced players, not the beginners, to point out when bad advice has been directed toward beginners.

I'm not sure why you haven't backed down, other than the fact that so few people are willing to admit that they are wrong about the smallest points, even in the face of overwhelming opposition and evidence.

[uDevil]

Mike,

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I really do not understand why you are pushing this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your attitude.

The purpose of this forum is to help beginners. I think the beginners that come here appreciate the help provided by more experienced players. I would personally like to see more, not fewer, experienced players here so that we can keep the discussion at a high level. That means correcting each other when necessary.

For the most part, posters are treated respectfully here. I think your post would get far more negative attention if you were to post it in the Micro-limit forum, for instance.

The argument continues partly because you don't concede that any part of your original post is wrong. Flopping trips in a big pot is not a bad thing. Calling with 54s from the big blind after multiple people have called a raise is definitely not a mistake.

Also, it isn't just about you. The beginners reading this deserve to see the errors in your post and to understand why they are errors.

[Mike]

UDevil,

I have been polite until responded to otherwise, correct? If you do not think so please reread the whole thread.

As to my original post, please read it again and tell me exactly what you think is wrong?

UDEvil: "The argument continues partly because you don't concede that any part of your original post is wrong. Flopping trips in a big pot is not a bad thing. Calling with 54s from the big blind after multiple people have called a raise is definitely not a mistake."

Here is what I said:

Mike: "...Hero is late to BB.... Someone has raised early, but five or six are in the pot in various states,

""I did not say hero is in _BB_, also notice not everyone is in the hand calling the raise by the time it gets to hero [above]?""

When there are five or more calling raises preflop, they all are not poor players - most of the time.

If you must call preflop with small cards, think about what you want and why. Trips for you, may mean a full house for a more experienced player by the river.

....When there are five or more calling raises preflop, they all are not poor players - most of the time.

If you must call preflop with small cards, think about what you want and why. Trips for you, may mean a full house for a more experienced player by the river. ...."

I fail to see where there is any bad advice. Your own database shows you losing with it, where is the arguement that it is a good beginners hand?

As to why I posted here and not micro limits, is the assumption that this forum is for beginners, not players who feel confident in there play.

I too think beginners need a fair shake, and they are not getting it from the responses my post has received, imo.

[AKQJ10]

OK, I promised to stop this but I can't get past comments like this:

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If you must call preflop with small cards, think about what you want and why. Trips for you, may mean a full house for a more experienced player by the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, there's a zero or negative correlation between experience and drawing out to make a full house. Zero, because it's dumb luck whether your card gets there or not. Negative, because bad players will stay in too long with 77 on an A55 flop for multiple bets, trying to catch their two-outer. Occasionally they will succeed. Drawing any inferences about the desirability of playing trips because they got beaten by two-outers is results-oriented, in every pejorative sense of "results-oriented."

It sounds as though you happened to see a statistical anomaly, three or four hands where trips got beaten by full houses. So you've decided that trips is a danger hand and resolved to do a public service by warning newbies.

So that we're clear, let's talk about a specific, made up hand:

Hero has 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in cutoff.

4 limp, Hero (CO) limps, button raises, blinds both call, limpers all call. Hero calls.

Flop (14 small): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

4 check, limper bets, call. Hero ????


Suppose hero calls. (Actually I think a raise is pretty clearly the right play here -- huge pot, needs protection -- but that's because I don't see trips as a weak hand. So we'll compromise and let Hero call.) Now button raises, one cold-calls, bettor calls, caller folds. Hero ????

Suppose hero calls.

Turn (11.5 big): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to button, bets, one caller, Hero ???

River (13.5 big): T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to button, bets, caller folds, Hero ???


If maintain that advising Hero to fold ANYWHERE in that sequence is absolutely, categorically wrong. It may well be that hero is beaten (most likely by a better four or fours full), but folding trips in a huge pot like that is just wrong.

Folding it on the flop precisely because you're afraid TT will use "experience" to river an overboat is just.... the wrong decision AND the wrong mode of analyzing a hand.

I don't want beginners to learn from your approach. "I saw three trips lose to full houses, so therefore trips are a danger hand that often loses to full houses" is just the wrong way to approach poker. Obviously you disagree, but my duty is to protest strongly enough that beginners will think it through themselves rather than accepting that trips is a trap hand.

Now yeah, if someone's raising trips-5 kicker to 7 or 8 bets on the river believing it to be the nuts, then that would be a trouble hand. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I said:

Mike: "...Hero is late to BB.... Someone has raised early, but five or six are in the pot in various states,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to clarify whether Hero is LP or BB, because it makes a world of difference wrt the odds Hero is getting on his call. Calling one more bet from the BB when there are already 10-12 bets in the pot is a no-brainer, while it would probably be a fold (for me anyway) from LP because you have to call 2 bets cold.

[raze]

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I am sure you have enough playing hours you do not consider yourself a beginner? Why are you wasting your time in a beginners forum arguing over a trival matter

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you attack someone for helping beginners? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[raze]

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Holding 54s no one wants to see a flop of 4,4,A,(or K,Q,J,T), with a raiser and one or more two-cold caller(s).


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I'd love to see such a flop with 54.

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Me too.

I think we can all agree that in this spot, calling one bet from the big blind is profitable, while cold-calling a raise in late position is probably unprofitable for a beginner?

[Mike]

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I think you need to clarify whether Hero is LP or BB, because it makes a world of difference wrt the odds Hero is getting on his call.

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Do you think the reader has a responsibilty to read and understand, not just skim and draw conclusions? I do not think that is unreasonable. I would have been happy to clarify if anyone would have asked.

I did say something to the effect of, 'I saw this three times'. Being a reasonable person and an experienced player, I can conclude that this is a summation of three hands that were observed. Can you agree with this too?

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Calling one more bet from the BB when there are already 10-12 bets in the pot is a no-brainer, while it would probably be a fold (for me anyway) from LP because you have to call 2 bets cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure would have enjoyed getting to this idea about the third reply. Thank you!

As I said, not everyone had called pfr. PFR was in the middle of the cycle two of the three times I say this situation play out.

As we all should know pf raises generally do not come from weak players at loose tables, but I took that as general knowledge, even for a beginner.

Fwiw, I do not think it is important, but hero, played 54s late, 32s late middle, and 53s on the button, each time cold calling a raise. I thought adding this would add confusion to my main thought which is beginning players should refrain from playing weak hands, and then cold calling raises.

You can accuse of leaving too much out, or not being clear enough, so be it, shooting the messenger, name calling, etc, is uncalled for, and unacceptable. In my defense I thought I put in enough for a productive thread, and some thinking done by a beginning player without muddling up the post with too much information.

If I post a new thread in Beginner's forum again, I will ensure I keep it to one simple concept and spelled out with no room for misunderstanding, so there is no confusion.

Thanks for your comment on folding, wish it came earlier though!

Mike

[SaErDnaW]

This was a very interesting discussion I must say. I didn't read exactly all of it, but I have read the most.

I think both a beginner and a more experienced player can play this hand from the big blind and go all the way to the river in a big multiway pot and profit.

I also think that this particular hand on that kind of board doesn't matter much in the long run. I think small suited connectors called from the BB, flopping sets, two pairs and strong draws and played decently postflop, isn't a serious leak for most beginners.

My suggestion is this for the beginners:

Check/Call one raise with 45s in the blinds in a multiway pot.

If you flop less than two pairs, an OESD or a FD: fold.
else: proceed...

I think it's as easy as that. You have to put things in perspective. If you always cap each streets with only one pair under these conditions you will lose money. But small suited connectors will add or subtract a little from your winrate, but I don't think it will do much in the long run.

Thats how I play them, and it works. They really doesn't make as much as AA, but they add a little to my winrate, and they are much much better than a hand like Q2s or J4s.