god I hate this line

[MatthewRyan]

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why is this thread so damn long

i like your line, call

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[BobboFitos]

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King of the Nits


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Loc: being run over

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easy fold?


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i loled

[Irish Mafia]

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And that post is the final say huh? I agree with Jared on many of his points in this thread. But are we to believe that JJ-KK bets this flop after our preflop action (since he is a 'tight 3bet caller'? Come on now.... You can't have it every which way that helps your cause.

And even if he is, the fact that you have exactly 1 line (c/c to ch/ch to b/c) that you feel you can take to make money has to say something about your thought process, no? I am seriously not seeing any maximizing anywhere going on.

This thread has officially gone retarded.

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Actually I don't think OP had any clue on what villains 3bet calling range was. And i don't think Jared was saying KK would BET the flop - he was saying, if we check the flop, we might get called by KK on later streets. Also, I really think the situation is unique to ace-high flops in that you are fairly confident you have the best hand. Against a guy who has a VERY WIDE 3-bet calling range though - betting out on the flop I think is less EV b/c if this idiot is calling w/ 44 or 6-7 suited, we let him off the hook. In that case, i'd check, let him take a stab and then shove over the top.

[jlocdog]

But the flop DIDN'T get checked through. That is the point of me questioning the c/c. Either bet out (I mean you did 3bet from SB) or c/r then. You are ahead all too often and WILL get action from weaker Aces and such.

Reread my line of questioning and OP's answers and see if you can see his manipulation of the argument. I ask 'when does your perception of his range strengthening occur given the fact that his preflop range and postflop range are vastly different [according to him]' He says the turn. SO, that means he has to feel he is still comfortably ahead on the flop since we have already concluded that he is comfortably ahead preflop. SO, how is c/c the flop more EV then raising if he plan on folding to a double barrel every time? Am I freakin missing something here? WTF!

[Triumph36]

you should hate that line, it's absolutely abysmal. it's atrocious poker, pure and simple. you raise, and then when you hit your hand, you figure your raising range/betting range is SO transparent that checking figures to be more profitable than betting. Then when you turn your hand face up as 'not ace-king' and your opponent bets again, you figure your hand must be no good, even though everyone 4 bets AK these days so you're really only losing to AQ and a set.

i abhor this line if you don't call the turn. like - why in the world would ever 3 bet, then hit your hand and say 'o it's no good'. KQ is diff than AJ too so that was a bad example.

[Isura]

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why are u 3 bettin this pre if u are gonna fold/not bet when u hit ur hand.... lol.

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HAY YOU HIT YOUR ACE NOW GO ALL IN PLZ

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He has a point. You get a perfect flop and don't know what to do.

[jkkkk]

you know what, he DOES have a point, but like the last several posters he adds nothing!

if you are going to point out the painfully obvious 'zomg you reraised and are now considering folding top pair, just bad poker dude', at least suggest a better line as well.

I think there is a strong argument for flatting pf here, felting w/out a real idea of his range just seems suboptimal to me.

[willw9]

How does this hand change if we have AK? Does it change at all?

[jellesi]

I had the exact same spot that i've been pondering for a while now. I like how I played it at first (checkcalling all streets) but then regretted it coz I really have no information at all conserning his hands. If I bet out as I normally do I will sort of know where I stand in the hand. I really hate that expression but this is a time when I think it is of use :P

In my hand villain had a set and bet allin on river which i happily called! But yeah, choosing this line it feels like u almost have to call all streets if u think villain is capable of firing a few barrels!

Did u call river?

[Triumph36]

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you know what, he DOES have a point, but like the last several posters he adds nothing!

if you are going to point out the painfully obvious 'zomg you reraised and are now considering folding top pair, just bad poker dude', at least suggest a better line as well.

I think there is a strong argument for flatting pf here, felting w/out a real idea of his range just seems suboptimal to me.

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there is a huge argument for flat calling pf here, however you should be defending blinds with a wider range. basically your line would be the same but without the pot inflation - c/c c/c c/c. that's a fishy line.

i still like betting flop - if we get called, we're probably ahead, raised we're probably behind.

when you put yourself in the mystery zone like this, i prefer calling, even if opponent isn't all that aggro.