Agree with Moshman's Fundamental Theorem of Sng Late Game?

[pineapple888]

Just to clarify, the main point is WTF with "Fundamental Theorem"? There must be about 75 fundamental theorems of STTs, then, because this is a single fairly useful principle (with common exceptions that apparently our low-stakes grinders don't understand) among many, many others. It just shows yet again how Colin's understanding is extremely shaky. I don't care if his book sells or not, and I really shouldn't get involved in these discussions, but it is somewhat aggravating that there are a few thousand more qualified authors, and this dude just spews out some random stuff and gets published. But what do I care, I'm done.

[IcemanDan]

Simply purchasing SNGwiz or SNGPT is probably a better investment. A book can only instruct on so many hand examples and situations. Differing stack sizes, blind levels, opponents remaining, opponent tendencies, etc create too many situations for a book to adequately address IMO. The book really doesn't unearth any secrets about playing sngs. The early game advice is pretty elementary.

What moshman should have done (but didn't) was to include a section how to determine pushing and calling ranges for villains based on reads or PAHud. The pushing charts at the end of the book are probably worthless, as he includes stack size and position, but not calling range of opponents, or considerations for calls/raises in front.

[DeuceSeven]

I just ordered the book. I don't think anything is better then ICM software and this forum when trying to learn sngs. Who knows maybe I'll learn one new thing that will help my game. Or maybe I'll disagree with something that gets me to think through a situation in a different way. I'm only a moderate winner at small stakes sngs so there's a chance I'll pick up one thing that makes reading the book worthwhile.

[BozMan82]

Will there be an official review thread for the book in this forum once enough people receive their copies? There's a thread going right now in the Books forum, but I ask because PNL has review threads in both the Books forum and in SS NL.

[DuderinoAB]

I think Colin takes a bad wrap here. I agree that SNGPT/Wiz and this forum will probably help a player significantly more than his book will (although I haven't read any of it other than the magazine excerpt). The knock on him is that his script was published when other, perhaps more qualified, STTF'ers were told that 2+2 wasn't interested. If anything we should probably all be upset with Mason since he's obviously clueless when it comes to STTs and what it might take to produce a great STT book. Props to Colin for apparently marketing himself in a way that got his book published.

[JROK777]

Colin seems to be a good guy. I'll buy hs book and read it because I could care less about $26. However, I am amazed that 2+2 didn't conatact curtains_, Gigabet, MajorPolk, ZeeJustin, BigJoe or any of the other top 10 SNG players in the world. I never did get to thank curtains_ for his generousity to the 2+2 forum. He should have had the first chance at the gig. 10,000+ content filled posts. I could just feel my ROI goin up reading his advise. Any serious player should read all of curtains_ posts in the archives. It amazing all the talent the does not play/post much anymore. 24 months ago it was a goldmine of information. I was like a kid on Cristmas morning. Thanks.

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Guys,

"Fundamental Theorem of" may overstate, but this is one of the most crucial topics in winning SNG play and I wanted to draw particular attention to it. "Don't get blinded out" may seem obvious to some, but I see many good players violate this principle, and I wanted to show in the book how to avoid this tourny catastrophe even when you're not getting the cards. I feel that this section, and the follow-up "How Not to Get Blinded Out," are two of the strongest sections in the book.

DuderinoAB and JROK777:

When I contacted 2+2 about my interest in writing an SNG book (~ 13 months ago), Mason said he couldn't tell me anything without a full manuscript. So I spent the better part of a year writing almost full-time, at which point 2+2 reviewed the manuscript and agreed it was worthy of publication. Other excellent SNG players would be very qualified to write a book on the topic, and there is no reason they still can't (e.g., there are multiple books out on low-stakes limit hold em alone). One reason these guys may not have books out is that it takes a substantial amount of time and effort, with no certain reward, during which it is very hard to maintain a bankroll and have enough time such that you can still invest enough to make a living gambling.

Best Regards,
Collin

[drzen]

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Sklansky's "fundamental theorem" is worse; he has to twist himself like a rubber doll to keep it alive in NLHTAP. But we're not hating on big Dave, are we?

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We probably would if he wrote a book about SNGs.

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Yeah, you probably would.

[drzen]

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Just got the new Sng book and I've skimmed through most of it. I was wondering if people in this forum agree with what he calls the "Fundamental Theorem of Sit 'n Go High Blind Play" : don't let yourself get blinded off.

He further fleshes out this idea in saying that if you have 3-5BB you are breaking the rule if you don't push before the blinds get to you.

Whether you've read the book or not, i'd like to hear some other opinions on this idea.

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LOL at "Fundamental Theorem". Moshman==tool.



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You know, I like Collin. He seems a decent guy. When he posts in this forum, he puts effort into it, and gives a decent analysis. I find his posts helpful and informative, and I don't see much in the way of counterargument.

I'm a very moderate player. I play at a low level and although I win, I have a long way to go to feeling I know a thing about SNGs. I'm really looking forward to reading Collin's book. I wouldn't touch yours, dude. That's no reflection on your ability, but it's an indictment of your chitty attitude.

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Decent general principle for a noob. Lots of exceptions.

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That's bullchit. It's practically a law. The exceptions are quite rare, and we all bear some version of this "theorem" in mind when we're getting short.

Sklansky's "fundamental theorem" is worse; he has to twist himself like a rubber doll to keep it alive in NLHTAP. But we're not hating on big Dave, are we? Just Collin, for having the temerity to write a book.

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You know, you defend him every chance you get. Quite interesting. I wonder why.

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I told you, I like him, and I find his advice in this forum helpful. Other than that, no reason. I don't have a dog in the race.

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When did I ever say I wrote a book? If I did, it wouldn't suck, and you would be a huge fool not to buy it. Which you already are, apparently.

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I told you, if you did, I wouldn't touch it.


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From everything I can tell, Colin's an arrogant tool who doesn't know what he's talking about. Now, I'll be the first to admit I'm an arrogant tool. But note the difference.

Plonk. (i.e. don't bother responding).

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Whatever. You're not on Uselessnet now, big boy. I'll take Collin's reasoned advice over some tool telling me it's standard to do whatever any day of the week.

[drzen]

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Colin seems to be a good guy. I'll buy hs book and read it because I could care less about $26. However, I am amazed that 2+2 didn't conatact curtains_, Gigabet, MajorPolk, ZeeJustin, BigJoe or any of the other top 10 SNG players in the world. I never did get to thank curtains_ for his generousity to the 2+2 forum. He should have had the first chance at the gig. 10,000+ content filled posts. I could just feel my ROI goin up reading his advise. Any serious player should read all of curtains_ posts in the archives. It amazing all the talent the does not play/post much anymore. 24 months ago it was a goldmine of information. I was like a kid on Cristmas morning. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is top advice for newbies. I haven't read all curtains' posts but I find him very lucid. Gigabet is on a whole different level. I hope to be able to understand him fully in a year or two. I'd like to add Shillx to your list of names. If Brad writes a theory post, either here on in the microlimit group, it is essential reading. He isn't necessarily always right but the depth of thinking he indulges in is a beacon for players who want to improve.

I don't think Collin has claimed to be better or have better ideas than any of those guys. He hasn't been immodest but he wrote the book. None of the haters did. Writing a book -- any book -- is a huge undertaking. I'm an editor in my "day job". I know how tough it is to create a book from scratch, particularly when you're not recycling stuff. And yes, there's plenty of great reading in the 2+2 archives. But not everyone reads 2+2's archives.

I wish that the haters would do something more constructive. You think there's better stuff in the archives. Well, where's your digest of links? Where's your theory posts to help players like me, moderate, wanting to improve, desperate for basic guidance as well as specific hand guidance? Where's your big contribution?