$11/180 facing river raise...wtf?

[chh]

I still dont get why you would want to check.. I just dont see any "value" in checking and then allowing a slowplay to run over you.

I kinda see 2 ways of handling this:
a) bet out on the flop and hope that you win right away so you leave guessland. If the bet doesnt win right away I might very likely be giving up on the turn depending on villain's action/betsize.
b) check with the intention of checking/calling down all the way, and maybe fold if he bets too much... but then ofc you have no clue where you are, you dont know if he's firing a big second barrel to get you away or for value... but mostly you have a decent chance to be bluffed at least 2 times when ahead. Now while I would very much like that line if I had called a late position steal while being in the BB, I really dont like it all that much in this situation, especially with another dude around.

Usually I would prolly just fire 200 on the flop and hope to end it right there instead of trying to get value from hands like jj-kk (because at the same time you give that value to hands that have you beat with no way of knowing if you re ahead or not)

if my POV sucks please elaborate why

[kurtkatt]

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont get why you would want to check.. I just dont see any "value" in checking and then allowing a slowplay to run over you.

I kinda see 2 ways of handling this:
a) bet out on the flop and hope that you win right away so you leave guessland. If the bet doesnt win right away I might very likely be giving up on the turn depending on villain's action/betsize.
b) check with the intention of checking/calling down all the way, and maybe fold if he bets too much... but then ofc you have no clue where you are, you dont know if he's firing a big second barrel to get you away or for value... but mostly you have a decent chance to be bluffed at least 2 times when ahead. Now while I would very much like that line if I had called a late position steal while being in the BB, I really dont like it all that much in this situation, especially with another dude around.

Usually I would prolly just fire 200 on the flop and hope to end it right there instead of trying to get value from hands like jj-kk (because at the same time you give that value to hands that have you beat with no way of knowing if you re ahead or not)

if my POV sucks please elaborate why

[/ QUOTE ]


define value, then read your own post again.

[chh]

what are you trying to tell me? that a bet can only win the chips currently in the middle while a check can win more than that?
A check keeps you guessing and might cause you to either lose more than you would have had you bet.. or to actually fold against a bet on a later street against a worse hand that would have given up against a flop bet.

[kurtkatt]

im asking u to think about value, not about easier decisions. then relate that to your first post.

[chh]

hmm..

The only thing I can think of is that..

If we bet we eliminate all hands that might bet at us later or call, while a check might induce a bluff or call from a weaker hand.

But I suppose you must be onto something else.. !? you really got me puzzled here

[BlueEcho]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm..

The only thing I can think of is that..

If we bet we eliminate all hands that might bet at us later or call, while a check might induce a bluff or call from a weaker hand.

But I suppose you must be onto something else.. !? you really got me puzzled here

[/ QUOTE ]

As stated earlier I had given up on this thread, but you are close here so maybe I shouldn't.

Think about how what you said adds value to your hand. If you can get your mind around this concept and understand value and how it relates to expected value you will be there I think. I'm making you think this out because that is how the better posters made me do it........and probably how I learned it.

[kurtkatt]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm..

The only thing I can think of is that..

If we bet we eliminate all hands that might bet at us later or call , while a check might induce a bluff or call from a weaker hand.

But I suppose you must be onto something else.. !? you really got me puzzled here

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont get what u dont get? im not after anything else other than that.

[chh]

Well...
Seeing how the board is completely lacking any draws you could of course consider this to be a WAWB situation (but because of the 3rd player which I'd like to be gone I dont really like to see it as such).

If this was a headsup encounter I would surely check here, dont get me wrong. I'm well aware that you will lose about the same amount when you re behind and will get extra value from hands that might otherwise give up if you show aggression. But I just have a mental barrier in a 3 way pot that keeps me from just taking the same line here, despite the dry board...

but is that really the "concept" you want me to grasp or is there still smth I dont seem to be getting?

[weimoxer]

Value shoving with jj-kk is not likely, and I saw where that has been agreed upon. I think a frustration shove with KK is highly possible. Like someone else pointed out we are giving this guy to much hand analysis credit. I could def see a player at this level, checking flop, calling turn with KK here, then seeing if he calls river most of his stack is in, so he thinks "screw it, I am shoving if he has an ace good for him".

Maybe he got excited with KQ dimes and raised ep pre with it, and didnt get their decided to shove. Those 2 hands you beat. I am trying to think in an avg non thinking players mind.

Other hands he may have. AK, AA, 1010, MAYBE A10, I think he would have bet AQ, I could be wrong.. His line also could represent AK, badly, AA, 1010, MAYBE A10. His line seems like he is slow playing.

He is pretty commited to shoving than calling the river, so it makes the read harder. I could just as easily see him shoving frustrated here, as well as shoving with a hand that beats you. I think you are behind here more than you are ahead. Without knowing his preflop raising tendencies it makes it that much more difficult

[weimoxer]

With my view above my line would have been..

Check, flop. Bet 160 on turn. Check call river (depeding on size). I think you are just as likely for him to value bet KK, as he is just to call a value bet with it. It also gives you a chance to evaluate his bet size.