50 NL: AKs making top pair calling down

[Tessai]

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Why would you raise to "find out where you are at" here? You have position, the board is dry, and you're likely WA/WB. By raising, won't you fold out those KK,QQ,AQ hands that you're beating?

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But KK QQ will probably stop fireing at the turn so you wont get any more value anyhow.
By calling down (beeing WB) you just lose your whole stack.

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Well when you have position, you can see how he's gonna act before you on all 3 streets; since he's not a maniac or anything, unless he has AA, JJ, I doubt he'll fire on the turn AND river.

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did i understand you right, that you put him on AA or JJ because he is betting turn and river?

[PleasureGuy69]

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Why would you raise to "find out where you are at" here? You have position, the board is dry, and you're likely WA/WB. By raising, won't you fold out those KK,QQ,AQ hands that you're beating?

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But KK QQ will probably stop fireing at the turn so you wont get any more value anyhow.
By calling down (beeing WB) you just lose your whole stack.

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Well when you have position, you can see how he's gonna act before you on all 3 streets; since he's not a maniac or anything, unless he has AA, JJ, I doubt he'll fire on the turn AND river.

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did i understand you right, that you put him on AA or JJ because he is betting turn and river?

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs aren't going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

[Genz]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

[PleasureGuy69]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

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I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere.

[Nogatsira]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

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I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere.

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I don't understand your reasoning here.
What would your play be then?
You wont reraise the flop, and they bet again on the turn.
They wont do it with KK QQ, so basically you're calling down and hope for a split pot against this TAG? I don't think villain would go all the way with a hand that has you beat.

Or do you fold a turn where they might fire again with AK/AQ/Ax?

[PleasureGuy69]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

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I meant to say "aren't" that's why I disagree with raising somewhere.

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I don't understand your reasoning here.
What would your play be then?
You wont reraise the flop, and they bet again on the turn.
They wont do it with KK QQ, so basically you're calling down and hope for a split pot against this TAG? I don't think villain would go all the way with a hand that has you beat.

Or do you fold a turn where they might fire again with AK/AQ/Ax?

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If you raise the flop, KK,QQ fold but those better hands like AA, JJ will play (AK and maybe AQ will probably call to re-evaluate) so really you're folding out those 2 hands that might bluff you later and you will lose to AA, JJ. Because of this, raising here has no value. If you just call in position, he might bluff again with KK,QQ, or he can check and you can check to induce a river bluff from him and you gain value that way.

Raising to find out where your'e at just seems like a bad idea to me especially when you're WA/WB.

[Nogatsira]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

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Totally agree. Thats why I also like to reraise the flop to find out where I'm at.
If he has aces he'll reraise or at least call (and slow down on the turn if he has AK).
Find out where you're at on the flop and lose the minimum.

[Genz]

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Well I'm just saying that most TAGs are going to 3 barrel KK, QQ on a board like this OOP.

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Hm. I tend to disagree. Cbet, yes, bet turn, yes. But push AI on the river against a villain who has raised preflop and then called all the way on an A-hi board? I don't think so, actually. That would be a really gross overplay especially because both players are 150+BBs deep. That would even be a bad play with AQ.

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Totally agree. Thats why I also like to reraise the flop to find out where I'm at.
If he has aces he'll reraise or at least call (and slow down on the turn if he has AK).
Find out where you're at on the flop and lose the minimum.

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How much would you reraise? 25? So $18 more? That's $2 more than calling to the river. I don't want to be a nit, so lets say it's pretty much the same. And if you reraise the flop, you narrow villain's range considerably and will only get called when you are way behind. Because I think his betting range on the flop and turn is wider than his calling range on the flop, I think I have more equity vs his betting range and I want to play against that. And since we are unlikely to improve (an A might fill him up, a K might make him a straight or a set), I like getting closer to showdown when I put money into the pot, i.e. spread it over multiple streets instead of battling with another deep stacked player with a one-pair holding in a reraised pot on the flop.

[Nogatsira]

$18 more compared to $14 on turn and $44.65 on river.
That aint $2 more then calling to the river?

[Genz]

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$18 more compared to $14 on turn and $44.65 on river.
That aint $2 more then calling to the river?

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OP invested $7.5 on the flop and $16 on the turn to see the river and be confronted with a push that he shouldn't have called. So if he had folded, he would have lost $23.5.
I assumed you'd raise to $25 on the flop to see where you are at. So if villain doesn't fold but calls or reraises which you would rate as being beat, if I understand you correctly, you would have invested about the same amount without seeing all 5 cards. And since AQ might consider a call on the flop to reevaluate on the turn, you don't even really know if you are clearly beat when villain calls. I don't think this info is worth the additional money if I can a reach a very high level of confidence of being beat by calling, seeing all 5 cards and being faced with an undoubtable move for the same amount.