50NL; AK TPTK in 3bet pot vs. loose passive who is being aggro

[cooker3]

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I agree with you, I just think a min raise is cheap here and will give you a better idea of where you're at. Do you fold no matter what amount he bets on the turn?

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yes but flat calling and folding the turn is even cheaper!
A whole 16bb cheaper
And raising to "find out where you are at" is never ever the best play.
I may call if he min betted, thats about it, with his stats I don't think he 3 bets and fires 2 barrels with a hand worse then AK

[roll]

If villain's range is JJ+ and AK then on the flop he has JJ, QQ, or AK 18/22 times. He has JJ or QQ 12/22 times. Because of the overwhelming percentage of time that you're ahead or tieing and his low flop agression I would make it $24 on the flop. If he shoves I'd fold (assuming you don't think he would shove AK). If he calls I'd shove the turn to try to push him off AK.

I don't really see what you accomplish by calling the flop as I doubt he continues betting with JJ or QQ and you don't gain any information.

Edit: I realise you gain some information on the turn by just calling the flop bet. More specifically, you find out whether he had JJ/QQ or not, but this isn't valuable information. What is valuable is knowing whether he has AK. As I said before if you think villain will only call a flop raise with AK, but shove a flop riase with KK/AA then I think raising is clearly correct as it becomes simultaneously the cheapest way to find out if you're beat and the line with the most fold equity against AK.

[iwa]

raising to find out where you are at is never the best play? I disagree with that statement very strongly. Information is the key. I think he is capable of leading the turn with qq or jj with a smaller size bet, not to be results oriented with the size of turn bet he made, because I think in this situation it is an obvious laydown. With JJ and QQ he would not be 'firing' 2 barrels, he could think his hand is the best hand and be protecting it from drawers while being OOP.

[cooker3]

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Edit: I realise you gain some information on the turn by just calling the flop bet. More specifically, you find out whether he had JJ/QQ or not, but this isn't valuable information. What is valuable is knowing whether he has AK. As I said before if you think villain will only call a flop raise with AK, but shove a flop riase with KK/AA then I think raising is clearly correct as it becomes simultaneously the cheapest way to find out if you're beat and the line with the most fold equity against AK.

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I agree in theory but I think it would be really hard to know that villain will push with aa/kk but only flat call with ak. That is so specific that you would know to have played a hell of a lot of hands with him.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
raising to find out where you are at is never the best play? I disagree with that statement very strongly. Information is the key. I think he is capable of leading the turn with qq or jj with a smaller size bet, not to be results oriented with the size of turn bet he made, because I think in this situation it is an obvious laydown. With JJ and QQ he would not be 'firing' 2 barrels, he could think his hand is the best hand and be protecting it from drawers while being OOP.

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Yes poker is all about information but raising with sole intention of finding out where you are at without any other reason is bad, this has been demonstrated over and over again.

[iwa]

Really, I do it all the time with very positive results.

[cooker3]

You start playing at a decent level and keep doing that then good players will soon start telling you where you are at whether they have a hand or not.

[roll]

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I agree in theory but I think it would be really hard to know that villain will push with aa/kk but only flat call with ak. That is so specific that you would know to have played a hell of a lot of hands with him.

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Good point, I was saying all that based on the low .74 postflop agression factor but I guess it would be better to have real reads or at least a couple thousand hands on villain before taking my line for my reasons.

[iwa]

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You start playing at a decent level and keep doing that then good players will soon start telling you where you are at whether they have a hand or not.

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go on...

don't get me wrong, I hardly ever make min raises. I think this situation provides an opportunity to min raise the villian in order to determine if ak is good in this situation.

[monkover]

i din´t read all the other comments but i´m folding this on the turn. preflop prob is marginal flop you def have to call b/c you prob are also ahead of villain´s cbet/valuebetting range . once he fires the turn we´re close to never good here.