routine?

[Smarty]

When I'm playing really really well I will fold here to the 4-bet, because you are almost always crushed here, and when the board does pair, a good chunk of the time you are still behind to a boat instead of ahead of a counterfeited 2-pair. Most of the time, however, I do call down and do lose.

[The Funky Llama]

if his range is only 22,33,77,88, 87s you have 6.5% equity with AA and are getting 10.5:1 to make the turn call which means you need 8.9% equity. So even if this is his range it is very close to a call.

Any player described as a lag online has a much bigger range however. He will often turn up with hands like 9To, K8s, and A8o here. A lot of times he is making a "free showdown cap," so your effective odds to call are better than they appear.

As for NL players playing limit, my experience is a lot different. A lot of times they may have better hand reading "skills", but the problem is they haven't played enough limit holdem to accurately put players on hand ranges based on their actions. It takes a ton of hands before you know how typical lags play hands in certain situations for example.

NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]


NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah..lol on those nl dooodz who try to think through hands. dont they know your just supposed to spew chips pre flop/flop and bloat the pot so big that you then get to call call down for " the size of the pot". showdowns r fun!

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah..lol on those nl dooodz who try to think through hands. dont they know your just supposed to spew chips pre flop/flop and bloat the pot so big that you then get to call call down for " the size of the pot". showdowns r fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

or just spew a bunch of chips on the turn.

or think of lhe like all the clowns in bbv.

[Victor]

limon, what sort of equity do you think we need to 3bet the turn?

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
limon, what sort of equity do you think we need to 3bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

depends on what i put my opponent on. his cold calling pf is such a horrible play. i figure its either 2 siuted broadway cards or a pocket pair. his pfr raise % is hi so i dont see him slowplaying aa,kk,qq here, his flop call is further proof.. i put him on a weak piar i have crushed when he raises the turn. 98s or a 66 that wants me to fold was what came to mind initially. i dont know my % in the heat of battle just that im way ahead and want ot get more money in. when he puts in 4 i reasses. hes not putting in 4 w/ 89 or 66...he was slowplaying and has a monster, he knows now i have a big overpair, and hes showing his hand down, hes not putting in 4 as a bluff, no one does, lets be honest. the board is to dry to worry about tricky plays w/ draws. he thinks he has a winner, even against a big over who would insta 3-bet him.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah..lol on those nl dooodz who try to think through hands. dont they know your just supposed to spew chips pre flop/flop and bloat the pot so big that you then get to call call down for " the size of the pot". showdowns r fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

or just spew a bunch of chips on the turn.

or think of lhe like all the clowns in bbv.

[/ QUOTE ]

a. its only a spew if you call down
b. im no clown.

[Schneids]

PokerStars Game #10862077119: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/07/10 - 03:03:01 (ET)
Table 'Hermentaria' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Jee1 ($6270 in chips)
Seat 2: Exclusive ($12081 in chips)
Seat 3: PapaWarbucks ($13956 in chips)
Seat 4: bshizzle ($10340 in chips)
Seat 5: HC_68 ($11747 in chips)
Seat 6: buck21 ($23116 in chips)
Exclusive: posts small blind $100
PapaWarbucks: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Ad Kd]
bshizzle: folds
HC_68: raises $200 to $400
buck21: calls $400
Jee1: folds
Exclusive: folds
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $600
HC_68: calls $200
buck21: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Ac 8s 6d]
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
HC_68: calls $200
buck21: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Ac 8s 6d] [7c]
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
HC_68: folds
buck21: raises $400 to $800
PapaWarbucks: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Ac 8s 6d 7c] [9c]
PapaWarbucks: checks
buck21: bets $400
PapaWarbucks: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
buck21: shows [5c 8c] (a flush, Ace high)
PapaWarbucks: mucks hand
buck21 collected $4895 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4900 | Rake $5
Board [Ac 8s 6d 7c 9c]
Seat 1: Jee1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Exclusive (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: PapaWarbucks (big blind) mucked [Ad Kd]
Seat 4: bshizzle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: HC_68 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: buck21 showed [5c 8c] and won ($4895) with a flush, Ace high



I think this hand is a good example of why you tend to always showdown "good" hands. Buck's numbers are pretty "good" and most people would say he plays "good," but his turn raise vs me is disastrous because from his perspective, that is a spot where if I'm betting the turn my fold to raise likelihood is practically zero. So yeah, you should always factor in the likelihood that opponents are just raising for the sake of raising (which seems to happen frequently as people get tilted in LHE).

[DeathDonkey]

Yeah Schneids this looks like a great example of "I picked up outs, better raise!" even though raising makes little sense against the range of hands that bets the turn into them there. I agree with you and see this crap from TAGs all the time.

-DeathDonkey

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah..lol on those nl dooodz who try to think through hands. dont they know your just supposed to spew chips pre flop/flop and bloat the pot so big that you then get to call call down for " the size of the pot". showdowns r fun!

[/ QUOTE ]
LHE is pain. 75% of the time you are losing in this spot, but since you only needed to be right 20% of the time you did the right thing calling down. As an NL player it is perhaps too tough on the ego to lose this often?! So you cling to the word "read", claiming we don't do this while in reality you may just be forgetting/leaving out factors that are important in the equation (including stone cold bluffs, 44-66, badly played overpairs/top pairs, the chance of cathing up/counterfeiting two pairs, etc). Even bad players at these limits know that aggression is key in LHE. Some take that concept too far and it should be a factor to be considered.

Yes, LHE can sometimes seem like a singleminded and not very complex game at times, especially on the late streets (AA needs to see a showdown always on boards like this). On the other hand, the situation that comes up all the time in LHE: steal raiser vs. big blind's any two seems much more interesting than the same situation in NL where big blind needs to be dumping a lot of hands - even in situations where he is often ahead.