$16 Stars: QQ line check - Page 3

Beerocrat · #21 06-18-2007, 04:36 PM

Sorry for the hijack.

NH.

Th3R3dDr4g0n · #22 06-18-2007, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your reasoning, but I'm just not that tight that I can fold KTs, and 2.25 to 1 pot odds heads-up. I agree position is a problem, but I'm usually okay making a 10% type move early. You have plenty of time to rebuild with the small blinds.

Anyway, I'm not alone in my thinking since both Dan Harrington and Scott Fischman would advocate the same advice. QQ+ needs a little bit more pre-flop pepper in early online play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't advise using Harrington and Fischman as the golden standards for STT play, but don't take it from me, there is no shortage of others on this board that will tell you the same (in less friendly terms). Many of Harringtons STT examples are incorrect.

The problem I have with calling out of position just because you are getting 2.25:1, is that you are easily dominated and may be a bigger dog than 2.25:1. What do you do now if your hand hits? You are first to act and don't have much info. What if a K hits? Hero makes the same play with AK and you are in trouble. What about when a T high board hits? You are now in a terrible spot vs JJ+. You might be getting exact odds of your hand winning if it were all in preflop, but you are out of position and will face only difficult decisions throughout the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I don't disagree with your reasoning, but early I'll take a shot with KT. Maybe that's a hole in my game I should stop doing. The Harrington/Fish advice only pertained to raising more than 3x pre-flop with QQ+ because online people will play looser with cheap blinds. Obviously, SNG regulars do the exact opposite, but that is their advice nonetheless and it has worked well for me. The calling with KTs in the BB is what I would do, not Harrington/Fish.

With the KT and I hit the board, I'm definitely leading out. If I get re-raised I'd lay it down, and if called, then I'll take the turn card and see how it goes from there. Is it spewing? I can see that perspective, but my perspective is taking a chance to build some chips to make moves with. I will definitely take your guys POV's into consideration and see how tightening up affects me.

*Also, in your scenarios the guy might have AK or JJ. But he might also have AQ, QQ, TT. Or worse, this is the top end of the spectrum. Basically the only hands I would fear if a K hit the flop is AA and AK (assuming from your hand range guesses that no one would have open-raised KQ or KJ)? Seems pretty okay to me. If he's got it, he'll let me know I think.

RRizGod · #23 06-18-2007, 04:55 PM

You will only hit a K on the flop like 15% of the time.

I encourage these calls all day against me. You will call fold off way more money in the long run then you ever will make.

Whats to say he doesnt have KK or AA? How does your hand fair against those hands?

Th3R3dDr4g0n · #24 06-18-2007, 05:02 PM

Against a legimately raised hand like 99-QQ, AJs, AQs..... KTs is better than 2 to 1. Odds are 2.25 to 1, I think it can go either way, certainly position is a strong factor to fold, but I don't think you can pin a donkey tail on the call. Then again, I play against weak competition and as I move up I'm sure it's better to fold. But even then, it's still a reasonable call I think.

But I agree, we should probably stop hijacking the thread, PM if you want, I'm always down to learn.

RRizGod · #25 06-18-2007, 05:21 PM

trust me, we got nothing better to do than hijack threads.

CheeseMoney · #26 06-18-2007, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't advise using Harrington and Fischman as the golden standards for STT play, but don't take it from me, there is no shortage of others on this board that will tell you the same (in less friendly terms). Many of Harringtons STT examples are incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

Beerocrat · #27 06-18-2007, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a legimately raised hand like 99-QQ, AJs, AQs..... KTs is better than 2 to 1. Odds are 2.25 to 1, I think it can go either way, certainly position is a strong factor to fold, but I don't think you can pin a donkey tail on the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds you quote only apply to all in PF, seeing five cards.

You are only 2.5:1 to hit a piece of the flop, so you are folding to any bet most of the time. IF you hit, you may well be dominated, and you have to pay to find out. You are check/folding, bet/folding way more often than you are winning the pot. I'm still not sure why you would want to discourage a call from BB with a hand like KTs, unless you hate chips.

Th3R3dDr4g0n · #28 06-18-2007, 06:09 PM

It's not that I don't like chips. I don't like being up against a set, two pair, overpair, flush or straight draw that got decent odds or decent stack/bet ratio to bust up my QQ.

I think the disconnect here is this. 3x is suppose to push off non-premium hands. But 3x doesn't do that as effectively at the start of SNGs because of the low blinds.

You're saying, "So what! You don't like chips, let these weaker hands in." But that's not the same philosophy you used to begin with otherwise you would only be raising 2x with your QQ later in the game to achieve the same effect.

Kevin8423 · #29 06-18-2007, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that I don't like chips. I don't like being up against a set, two pair, overpair, flush or straight draw that got decent odds or decent stack/bet ratio to bust up my QQ.

I think the disconnect here is this. 3x is suppose to push off non-premium hands. But 3x doesn't do that as effectively at the start of SNGs because of the low blinds.

You're saying, "So what! You don't like chips, let these weaker hands in." But that's not the same philosophy you used to begin with otherwise you would only be raising 2x with your QQ later in the game to achieve the same effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise 2.5-3xBB late game so yes that is the point. You WANT worse hands to call so you can get paid off.

Th3R3dDr4g0n · #30 06-18-2007, 06:30 PM

Yes, we all know that Kevin. Hello, this is not intro to Poker 101.

But the point is there is a line that you still have to draw to push out bad hands, attempting to isolate for the most part while simultaneously making money. Otherwise you would always just CALL with AA.

I'm saying early blind levels, 5x is enough to do just that. Peel back to 3x middle stages, and then 2x heads-up is usually how I play. Notice a trend?

A lot of you guys are saying stick with 3x early, and I've submitted that yes I will go right on and see how that works for me. To which I can answer, since then I've done it once so far with AA, got called by Q5s to which they hit two pair on a flop QJ5. I really wish I had raised 5x.