live 6/12 - I need a suited connectors check up

[Gap23Razor]

[ QUOTE ]
I
9-handed, typical mostly loose-passive but a couple LAGs on a weekday morning.

5 limpers, and I limp with 5d3d on the button, SB completes, BB raises, we all call.
Flop: Jd 9d 6x
BB bets, 3 call, MP raises, call, I call, SB calls, BB 3-bets, 2 call, MP caps, we all call.
Turn: 3x
MP bets, fold, I call, 2 more callers



[/ QUOTE ]

"PF: Generally, I will call any suited 0 or 1 gappers on the button in an unraised pot with >3 limpers. Is this too loose? If so, how about in this hand with 5 limpers in front of me?"

in this situation i think you are fine...

"Flop: I was tempted to 3-bet, but ended up deciding that I wasn't going to protect my hand with a 3-bet in this huge pot, there was no value given the number of callers and my tiny flush draw, and it might get capped anyway without me betting. Was this sensible or does anyone find a 3-bet to be EV+ here?"

again, imho it depends upon how many clean outs you have and your implied odds...clean outs i would think would be around 7 or 6 here...you have a flush draw true, but your flush is of low cards, and its possible you could be beaten by higher flush if 4 diamonds are put out on the board...with 5 other people in the hand it is a cinch that someone holds a higher diamond...also, if the board pairs you could lose to a full house, and with the betting action on the flop, it seems someone has a set...so while 9 cards may give you a flush, a 6d could give someone a house, and any diamond on the turn is mixed news...thus, shave 2 or 3 outs...with 7 or 6 it usually means play on to the turn at least and with 7 probably the river, unless heavy betting gives you a feeling you are beat...

"After it caps, I'm stuck calling because of the huge pot, right?"

yeah, i think so...on the cheap rounds with 6 or 7 outs yes...you have some equity

"Turn: Huge pot, I'm along for the ride even if this capped, correct?"

without a read to the contrary i would call, and although you have paired the board, i don't think you have more outs than 7 here...still you can call, and if you hit your flush you will get a caller or two on the river so you have implied odds...

anyway, i believe you are right that this is the type of hand that causes high fluctuations...big wins, and larger losses, and you need a strong mindset and a larger bankroll to hang in there...

[mrcunningham]

I'm thinking that if it were possible, I'd love to be able to get a single big(ger) diamond to muck. What if I make my flush on the turn? Well then a big diamond isn't going to go anywhere, but would beat me with another river diamond.

[mrcunningham]

I guess I mean "implied protection?" If it were possible to get a single big diamond to fold on the flow, I would subtantially increase my likelihood of winning a showdown if I make the flush on the turn.

Perhaps I am overthinking this, but I seem to recall SSHE suggesting such thinking, although possibly not in this kind of case. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking that if it were possible, I'd love to be able to get a single big(ger) diamond to muck. What if I make my flush on the turn? Well then a big diamond isn't going to go anywhere, but would beat me with another river diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still make the most from any bet going into the pot on the turn if your flush is good regardless of their correct call. Your equity in the hand far outweighs theirs at that point.

Your point is interesting though.

[mrcunningham]

The comments about "what would I be trying to protect" have got me thinking about the following concept. One reason to 3-bet the flop is because it might give at least some of the other players the idea that I had already made a hand that, "I was trying to protect," like TPTK or two pair, rather than a flush draw. Thus, if my draw actually hits I might get more calls on the turn and river. In contrast by passively calling the flop and turn, if a river diamond hits I get one caller since everyone would figure me for a flush. Anybody like this idea that jamming the flush draw might result in more callers towards the end, and that combined with the value make 3-betting the correct play?

[Befolder]

I think you'll remember that it's more advised when we have a nut draw because we build a pot that the others can't seem to get away from and when we hit, they are more likely to stay around w/ weaker hands because we have made the pot irresistible.

If you think about it, by bloating the pot w/ our vulnerable draw, we do exactly what we don't want, making it more attractive for them to stick around. Besides, people are far more likely to stick around for extra small bets on the flop . If we hit our hand on the turn, and force some to call 2 or more bets cold, then they are less likely to stick around I think.

As a variation play though, it's intriguing to think about. I think this is a good discussion.

[Little_blue]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, I know everyone else is going to disagress but. One gapers with a 2 or a 3 in it is a little too loose unless the game is very very passive from the flop on.

This is especialy ture in a heavily raked game ( I assume this is B&M $4 rake). You do not have enough of an edge to make up the rake unless the flop and turn are rarely raised.
I don't think that's the case here.

[mrcunningham]

Yeah, generally this was a loose passive game, 9 am on a Monday... Drop is $3 after flop with $1 for JP before flop. I would, however, argue that suited connectors would generally be exactly what you want to play in a game with a drop. The bigger the pot the less the the drop represent proportionally. The kind of pots yo win with the suited connectors is likely to be bigger than your typical TPTK hand.