I *have* to lay this down, right? Turn decision

[Colombo]

Betting the flop is pretty bad. You're only gonna be able to get 1 or two streets of value from Q, and checking the flop will make this easier. Not to mention you might save money vs Ax.

As played, turn sucks and u gotta fold.

[Bullzeye]

I know im a little late adding to this post, but correct me if im wrong. Is it not true that the BB could have just been bluffing you. The Q could have been a good card for him to bet on if he had felt that you were weak(which you implied by checking on flop). Yes, i know most would argue that he is usually passive but could he not just be using his table history. I watch a lot of poker shows and i have seen that many players will change their play in order to bluff other players off a hand. For example, Say a player has been playing very tight before the flop. If one player bet a high ammount and many people called could the player, who is said to be very tight, push all in because he knows that the other players think he has a way better hand(because of his tight playing style)? Im my opinion i would think that this is what the BB is trying to do. Simply using his table history to bluff you off your hand.
Now if this idea is completely stupid, please someone tell me now.

[Jiggymike]

I think I would bet the flop. My reasoning is only that if he calls your bet he probably has at least the Q whereas if you don't bet and he fires out on the turn, you can't really narrow his possible holdings as much and put yourself in a worse position. As played I think you have to fold the turn.

[LSgambler]

You have to lead the flop and see where u stand. If comes over the top then given your read it's a fold. As played, turn it's a easy fold.

[Austiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would bet the flop. My reasoning is only that if he calls your bet he probably has at least the Q whereas if you don't bet and he fires out on the turn, you can't really narrow his possible holdings as much and put yourself in a worse position. As played I think you have to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are lots of good reasons to check the flop, but this is a really good one:

BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
Turn blanks. BB checks, hero checks.
River blanks. BB bets. hero?

Now you don't know if he has the ace or the queen. However if it goes like this:

BB checks, hero checks.
Turn blanks. BB bets, hero calls.
River blanks. BB checks/bets Hero checks/folds.

Our river decision is pretty easy in this scenario.

Another reason to check is the free card. You are giving as well as getting a free card on the turn. The difference is that if villain hits the turn (as he possibly did in this hand) you are folding, whereas if the K hits, you can stack somebody with an ace (unless it's a cooler and he has aces full obv.)

[APipeDream]

I think your line is good. I may have bet that flop, but checking doesn't seem all that bad here.

[ThePershore]

I would usually bet that flop after raising to rep the Ace, as I c-bet a lot and would do with an Ace / any big flop for my hand. But the fact that you hold KK makes a big difference as you want to get value from hands like JQ, KQ, QT etc, especially as you said he is loose / passive.

Just unlucky that a Queen fell on the turn. And the turn should be an insta-fold.

PS. lol at pushing flop and "praying"...

[Ontario_Tory]

I have no issues with a cbet on the flop, but the point of the cbet is to find out where you are. If they come back at you (or even call), they've got you. Check-Fold after that.

Interesting reading about the "you're at the FT, right?"... I've noticed that many times now that people play tight - and well - on the FT bubble. They've got to get there. But once they're at the FT they just get stupid and reckless. The jump from 9 -> 8 is more than the jump from 10 -> 9, so why don't people value it as much? Let alone the jump from 9 -> 1...

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would bet the flop. My reasoning is only that if he calls your bet he probably has at least the Q whereas if you don't bet and he fires out on the turn, you can't really narrow his possible holdings as much and put yourself in a worse position. As played I think you have to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are lots of good reasons to check the flop, but this is a really good one:

BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
Turn blanks. BB checks, hero checks.
River blanks. BB bets. hero?

Now you don't know if he has the ace or the queen. However if it goes like this:

BB checks, hero checks.
Turn blanks. BB bets, hero calls.
River blanks. BB checks/bets Hero checks/folds.

Our river decision is pretty easy in this scenario.

Another reason to check is the free card. You are giving as well as getting a free card on the turn. The difference is that if villain hits the turn (as he possibly did in this hand) you are folding, whereas if the K hits, you can stack somebody with an ace (unless it's a cooler and he has aces full obv.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost agree, except if the turn and river are blanks, and the action went check/check, bet/call, check I'm so value betting that river to get value from all the queens...there's no way a hand that beats us is checking the river in that scenario, since we just look like we're trying to get to a cheap showdown.

edit: I don't see betting the flop as anything but terrible here. You're not getting 3 streets of value out of a Q, and either he has an A or has 2 outs. Oh yeah, I think we fold in the OP.

[Austiger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would bet the flop. My reasoning is only that if he calls your bet he probably has at least the Q whereas if you don't bet and he fires out on the turn, you can't really narrow his possible holdings as much and put yourself in a worse position. As played I think you have to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are lots of good reasons to check the flop, but this is a really good one:

BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
Turn blanks. BB checks, hero checks.
River blanks. BB bets. hero?

Now you don't know if he has the ace or the queen. However if it goes like this:

BB checks, hero checks.
Turn blanks. BB bets, hero calls.
River blanks. BB checks/bets Hero checks/folds.

Our river decision is pretty easy in this scenario.

Another reason to check is the free card. You are giving as well as getting a free card on the turn. The difference is that if villain hits the turn (as he possibly did in this hand) you are folding, whereas if the K hits, you can stack somebody with an ace (unless it's a cooler and he has aces full obv.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost agree, except if the turn and river are blanks, and the action went check/check, bet/call, check I'm so value betting that river to get value from all the queens...there's no way a hand that beats us is checking the river in that scenario, since we just look like we're trying to get to a cheap showdown.

edit: I don't see betting the flop as anything but terrible here. You're not getting 3 streets of value out of a Q, and either he has an A or has 2 outs. Oh yeah, I think we fold in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually had that as a bet when I first typed it, then changed it to check. I guess it depends on the player, but you're right. I think v-bet the river.