KK third hand of SnG

[ManChild]

If you fold this hand, I hate you and I wish many horrible things on you and your family

[Bingo_Boy]

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Surely there must be an arguement for folding KK preflop in some situations?

Early in tournament not a reason to fold
Blinds are small in relation to stack not a reason to fold
Villain will cripple you or knock you out not a reason to fold
Opposition you think you can outplay not a reason to fold
Villain has limped UG and shoved when you raised (which they love to do with aces at small stakes) not a reason to fold
You're liable to go on tilt for a week when you make a perfect read and make bad call anyway not a reason to fold



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Perhaps none these points are a reason to fold on there own but surely folding should be a consideration if all these factors were true.

As a novice im just querying the 'you CANT fold KK preflop its fundamentally wrong' arguement.

It seems from the reaction to these KK threads ("If you fold this hand, I hate you") that for serious multitablers concentrating on $/hr like you lot, letting KK go preflop is a big mistake. But how sure would you need to be of your read before folding would be a mistake in terms of % return, considering how often your gonna get outdrawn by AKs etc.

[React1oN]

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don't fold KK!!!!!!!!!11111

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[fluorescenthippo]

i saw jman fold KK PF in a live game once only to see the other guy flip over AA. so this is obviously a fold.

[Bingo_Boy]

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If you fold this hand, I hate you and I wish many horrible things on you and your family

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Because you dont get paid off with your aces? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[blackize]

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It seems from the reaction to these KK threads ("If you fold this hand, I hate you") that for serious multitablers concentrating on $/hr like you lot, letting KK go preflop is a big mistake.

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It's a HUGE mistake for anyone. You get shown JJ QQ AK AQ by even tight players a lot of the time and even worse by random players.

You have to be VERY VERY sure of your read to fold KK preflop. Even a little bit of uncertainty makes the call only slightly -EV and since you can always fire up another table, you should call unless you are 100% sure.

[Velocity]

hey look i have 77. ooh he raised, call. ooh they raised again. my pair is pretty. what does mike sexton call this hand again? oh well ill think of it later. call.

this is what is going through your opponents heads. notice how he thought a little longer before calling the all in. this does not mean hes actually thinking. your opponents are idiots who will play for their stack with wide ranges. KK is ahead of their ranges. If you don't get the money in, you are exactly like them, exactly like them, except you mindlessly fold instead of mindlessly call.

[Guizones]

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do you really think he shoves here with ak/qq?

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An unknown's range isn't even close to this narrow.

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he pushed with 10/20 blinds after a 3-bet to 15x bb. what range do you put him on here?

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Any pocket pair... I would say something like 66...

[Bingo_Boy]

Typical small stakes sng, first hand, blinds 10/20

villain UTG calls 20
5 folds
hero on button raise to 120 with KK
SB folds
BB folds
villain all in
hero ?


hes "obviously" got AA but i have to call?

pot = 1650
hero stack = 1380

1. Approx EV of call vs AA = 0.2 x 3030 = 606

2. Approx EV of call vs Ax = 0.7 x 3030 = 2121

3. Approx EV of call vs underpair = 0.8 x 3030 = 2424

(assuming these are the only possibilities which should be reasonable but perhaps isnt, igonoring KK)


Stack if folded = 1380


So assuming 2 and 3 equaly likely, %chance of option 1 = A

1380 = 606A + [2121 x (1-A)/2] + [2424 x (1-A)/2]

1380 = 606A + 1060.5 - 1060.5A + 1212 - 1212A

1380 = 2272.5 - 1666.5A

1666.5A = 892.5

A = 0.54


So in this case, if we can trust our read for AA, say 60% (accounts for AA and other trash we didnt include cos im being sad enough already?) then folding KK preflop can be good in extreme circumstances when blinds are very small compared to stack????


Would people really limp / shove like this with other assorted trash that i didnt include?

Are my percentages for Ax and underpair wrong?

Or is my hope of being 60% certain of AA against random small stakes players totally unrealistic?

Any thoughts (or abuse) would be appreciated

[Guizones]

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Typical small stakes sng, first hand, blinds 10/20

villain UTG calls 20
5 folds
hero on button raise to 120 with KK
SB folds
BB folds
villain all in
hero ?


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Sorry but this is not the same situation...it`s totally different IMO