live 6/12, KJs SB

[endo]

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I really want to know what hand someone call/3-towns with; especially when he is pretty much committed to going all in on this hand once he does that.

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Maybe he didn't realize he was going to have to be all in for this hand until he saw all the action on the flop... Seems normal to me and I wouldn't be too afraid.

[Bob T.]

Here is the deal. ANY TIME YOU HAVE TWO SUITED BROADWAY CARDS, AND IT IS ONE BET TO YOU, CONSIDER RAISING.

My default play would be to raise preflop here.

I would probably threebet the flop. When UTG 3 bets almost all in, I think that I am going to make it 4 when it comes back to me.

On the turn, I think that the HJ is trying to isolate the allin player, and I would reraise there.

I think the river is fine.

[Grease]

My apologies. I thought that Frond meant to bet, call the raise, and then cap after the 3-bet. I read his reply at night, and in the morning, I think he must meant why not 3-bet the flop after the HJ raise.

[ProfessorBen]

Raise preflop. This doesn't bind you to cbetting the flop, but against the range of limpers you have it's a raise for value. KJo doesn't play well multi way, KJs does.

Bet/3 Bet the flop. With UTG+1 calling, you want to charge 2nd pair.

If they just called your 3 bet, lead the turn and call down if its HJ raising, but 3 town if its UTG+1 going all in. Even if you're behind him you have a good shot of taking something from the sidepot.

[ProfessorBen]

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Flop: If I didn't see from later in the hand that UTG was nearly all-in I would say fold flop (a non-lunatic with a full stack in front of him has you smoked here), but given that he may just be stacking off I cap with the intention of starting a side pot, especially after HJ just calls the 3bet.

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Even if you put his range on 2-pair/set, folding the flop to the 3bet is horrible getting 12.7:1, closing the action on the call, having a BDFD, and having the possibility for counterfeits.

Folding is also terrible for image. Even SSHE players will notice you fold for a 3rd bet on the flop, though they won't know what to do with this information, admittedly. Fold the turn if he has a full stack.

[Xhad]

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Even if you put his range on 2-pair/set, folding the flop to the 3bet is horrible getting 12.7:1, closing the action on the call, having a BDFD, and having the possibility for counterfeits.

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13:1 actually isn't that much given that you're drawing to runners against a set and have 6 outs against 2pair, but in both cases have many "fake outs" that cause you to lose a bunch of money instead.

I've folded TPTK to this kind of action before, and have been wrong 0% of the time. Even if you don't belive that TPTK is a fold, this is TP3K, and B&M players are sometimes passive enough to limp better kings here, which again leaves you with 3 actual outs and 2 fake outs.

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Folding is also terrible for image. Even SSHE players will notice you fold for a 3rd bet on the flop, though they won't know what to do with this information, admittedly.

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Folding the flop after multiple raises in a multiway pot does not kill your table image.

[StrictlyStrategy]

1.) Make sure everyone reads your post correctly. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

2.) Alobar could you elaborate some more on why you think a turn coldcall river bet is gross? I'm not sure how much it matters but after the J hits a turn c-3bet is basically demanding everyone to fold; I know at these limits you start to see a few players capable of folding hands that'd get paid off if you just donked the river.


I'm definitely 3betting the flop. This is K8 and KQ way less than it's K9s K7s K5s etc.

[Xhad]

I'm not alobar but I'll take a crack at it. It's almost always a mistake to bet/call the river when you are almost certain your only opponent will bet. Reasoning:

-if you c/c, one bet goes in no matter what
-if you b/c, sometimes one bet goes in and sometimes 2 bets go in
-since your opponent decides when 2 bets go in, he will be doing it with his strongest hands and therefore on average you are losing money on the second bet

So what happens is by betting you sometimes do nothing and sometimes lose money. So you'd have to come up with a reason why HJ would raise flop and turn but check a brick river before a river donk is even worth discussing.

[BigBadBabar]

did alobar post in the thread?

[Xhad]

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I really, really don't like a bet/call/cap line on the flop. You're bloating the pot and tying yourself to it, as well as get the minimum amount of information from the other players while doing it.

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I agree this type of line sucks in general (if you do it with a monster you're giving your hand away and weaker hands usually aren't strong enough to do it unless they're flush draws) The thing is we did get some extra information when HJ just called the 3bet. He's actually showing less strength at that point then when he originally raised. And while the pot is bigger, it's also protected so we are safer folding than we would be in a more normal spot. 3bet may be best of all but call/cap is better in this unusual circumstance than call/call IMO.