rank these preflop mistakes - Page 2

mike l. · #11 05-01-2007, 03:08 PM

the third is the worst but strangely enough it's the play of the 3 im most likely to make... interesting...

mike l. · #12 05-01-2007, 03:14 PM

"1 is much worse than 2 and 3 put together."

no. the potential spazziness of the pf raiser and bad player in between plus potential of the blinds coming and your position plus decent although possibly dominated suited holding make 1 not so bad at all. position is the primary crucial thing here, follwed by presence of bad player.

we all know 2 is not that big a deal although building a pot with small cards out of position is not too good a spot. it really just matters how well one plays postflop and reads opponent's hands.

3 is suck because it means any two. you cant make up for the times the blinds come or reraise or you whiff or are crushed when you have one of those vast amounts of crappy unplayable hands like 83o or T5 or whatever. 3 is by far the biggest money loser although it's seductive because we all think we're great poker players and can just outplay fish with any sort of nonsense hand. ive experimented a lot with this (iso-raising with 82o and the like) and it's a good way to burn up money. 3 is the worst.

private joker · #13 05-01-2007, 03:22 PM

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3 is suck because it means any two. you cant make up for the times the blinds come or reraise or you whiff or are crushed when you have one of those vast amounts of crappy unplayable hands like 83o or T5 or whatever. 3 is by far the biggest money loser although it's seductive because we all think we're great poker players and can just outplay fish with any sort of nonsense hand. ive experimented a lot with this (iso-raising with 82o and the like) and it's a good way to burn up money. 3 is the worst.

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It's a money loser to put in money without seeing your hand, no matter what. To put 2 bets in dark is even worse. Yes. However... in this spot, we've been told the blinds will probably fold (1.5 SBs in dead money adding to our equity) and that the limper will fold unless he hits the flop or maybe has A-high -- and does he open limp with an ace anyway? So since he won't hit the flop very often, we can take it down with a flop bet no matter what we hold. And add to that the fact that we can also flop the best hand anyway, since 2 random cards will probably be at worst a 40% dog to his holding (which is unlikely to be a premium hand).

I'm not saying it's a good play; I'm just saying it's not horrific.

tessarji · #14 05-01-2007, 03:23 PM

3 isn't quite as bad as it appears, because you'd probably raise about 25% of your hands here if you looked.

2 is meh. Very slightly sub-optimal. I do stuff like this for fun a lot in multi-way pots all the time. It's an incredibly cheap way to build a crazy man image.

1 is very bad. Fold 90% of the time. 3-bet 10% of the time. This mixed strategy is much better than always folding or calling two bets.

1,3,2

emerson · #15 05-01-2007, 03:52 PM

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Assuming you only did each once, please rank these from most expensive to least expensive.

1) Loose mid-limit live game. Difficult to read player (capable of straight forward play and spazzy play) open raises from MP, Bad player cold calls, (blinds will probably come along, but sometime they will 3-bet)..... you cold call in the CO with K9s

2) 4 players call, sb folds, you raise 56s BB

3) 1 loose player limps (he will proably fold flop unless he catches some draw, overcards, might call you down with ace high at times), you raise in the dark from the CO (blinds will probably fold)

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I only posted to disagree with those who do not think that #2 is real bad. This is a hit or fold hand and you are out of position. You won't get the chance to check behind after being checked to or make free card raises, etc. You have the chance to see the flop absolutely free with a drawing hand against a few opponents... take it.

brettbrettr · #16 05-01-2007, 03:58 PM

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You have the chance to see the flop absolutely free with a drawing hand against a few opponents... take it.

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Of course its bad in a vaccuum. But I'm not liking it in a vacuum.

brick · #17 05-01-2007, 04:00 PM

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The assumptions in #3 are silly.

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If I said Loose PF, instead of just loose, would you be ok with my assumptions?
I wasn't so worried about my description of the loose player, but more about the fact most of the time your opponent in the BB will actualy call.

RudeboyOi · #18 05-01-2007, 04:01 PM

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I only posted to disagree with those who do not think that #2 is real bad. This is a hit or fold hand and you are out of position. You won't get the chance to check behind after being checked to or make free card raises, etc. You have the chance to see the flop absolutely free with a drawing hand against a few opponents... take it.

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emerson
thats not the point
these are all bad plays
its just how bad they are
relative to eachother
have fun with it

soonerorlater · #19 05-01-2007, 04:15 PM

132, with 1 and 3 being much worse than 2.

tessarji · #20 05-01-2007, 04:26 PM

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I only posted to disagree with those who do not think that #2 is real bad. This is a hit or fold hand and you are out of position. You won't get the chance to check behind after being checked to or make free card raises, etc. You have the chance to see the flop absolutely free with a drawing hand against a few opponents... take it.

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I disagree with you. First consider that barring a very odd reraise, it is impossible for this to lose you more than -.5 BB, which is the amount you put in. The other plays here seem like they could possibly lose you more than that.

Second, the amount it actually loses you is the difference between the amount invested and the equity it gains from the total pot. 56s against a bunch of motley limping hands probably has about 1/6 equity anyways. In this case, it loses you nearly nothing. It's also very easy to see on the flop if you will continue with the hand.

There is one case where raising 56s is really rather bad. This is if your opponents constantly call on the flop with insufficient odds. In this case, you're making their flop play much better and therefore costing you money on future streets. In a game where your opponents are already very bad and loose, this raise is actually worse than in a game where your opponents play well.