3 bet QQ OOP PF. flop action

[KEW]

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might be true. but then your line is horrible: when we c/c the flop, we basically hope that villain will give up and check behind the turn and the river. Looking at his AF, this is daydreaming. So we can either c/f the flop which isn't good, or give us any chance of winning that pot. And for that to happen, we need to bet it somewhere. C/C flop, c/f turn gives us virtually no way to win this pot against an aggressive opponent even if we are ahead.

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My reply was from the OP I did not notice OP posted stats later in the thread...

So it sounds as if against an aggro post flop villain you are taking this to the felt???? I do not think I am...

Even aggro villains do not fire 2 barrells into a 3 bet pot after being called on the flop with less the TP...Villain is aggro not a maniac...

If villain is as aggro as you seem to think can we B/F the flop safely???? I do not think so..

Villain being aggro is more reason to check the flop...He will not let it the flop check thru..In fact vs an aggro villain I would prolly be more worried if he did check this flop...

[Genz]

So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ? Will he check behind on the turn? What's your line for the river then? You base your argumentation only on the assumption that he won't fire a 2nd barrel without having at least TP. I can't see your line for the entire hand.

I'm not saying that I'm felting this. But I want to take it down on the flop with my mediocre hand. I might prevent him from bluffing with AJ or AT or whatever. But I just can't see that this villain will shut down completely without at least TP after getting called on the flop so that we can carry it to a SD.

[catfish_01]

What is the villian thinking when you check-call on a king high flop in a 3-bet pot? With my style of play, I'm typically not check-calling there without something good, and some percent of the time if I check-call there the villian would have good reason to shut down on the turn.

In other words, the (even aggro) villian would have to be one who is giving me little credit or respect for me to worry about them double-barreling without a hand that beats TPTK.

[KEW]

Against an aggro villain I can see the value in betting the flop...It may not extract the most value but can make the hand easier to play...If you do bet the flop and villain calls whats the turn plan??? When villain calls our flop lead we are in the same tough spot...



So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ?

With these hands I would expect villain to either fold or bluff raise us off our hand on the flop...As for the turn I would think if we fire twice I expect him to fold UI 100% of the time..At this point we would be pretty pot stuck and this villain would know that...

If an aggro villain check the turn I will assume MHIG and either bet or check/call...I will C/C if I think villain is more likely to bluff the river then he is to call a bet..

[Genz]

So you think he won't fire twice with these pairs? I think that is reasonable. catfish has a very good point there. I wonder how the rest of the hand went down.

[Lordy]

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Against an aggro villain I can see the value in betting the flop...It may not extract the most value but can make the hand easier to play...If you do bet the flop and villain calls whats the turn plan??? When villain calls our flop lead we are in the same tough spot...



So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ?

With these hands I would expect villain to either fold or bluff raise us off our hand on the flop...As for the turn I would think if we fire twice I expect him to fold UI 100% of the time..At this point we would be pretty pot stuck and this villain would know that...

If an aggro villain check the turn I will assume MHIG and either bet or check/call...I will C/C if I think villain is more likely to bluff the river then he is to call a bet..

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Let's say we bet, villain calls (let's also assume that villain is sane and not an aggro-tard). He has 2 type of hands : TT-QQ that think you're FOS (especially if it's not your first 3-bet) and hands that completely crush you (KK+, AK, 99)

Now what is he going to do with TT-QQ on the turn when you check ? He's probably checking behind. He thinks there's a good chance you have a whiffed AQ or something and wants to get to showdown. On the river, when you check again he's most likely taking that cheap showdown. I don't think TT and JJ are calling a river bet all that often.

With AK, he's either betting the turn or checking behind and snapping off your bluffs/value betting himself on the river.

With KK, AA, 99, he might decide to just call on the flop (no draws to be scared of) and is most likely betting the turn, trying to get it in.

So basically, I'd bet the flop and shut down if called. c/c flop might get a bit more value from worse hands, but it also invites a river or turn bluff that you might not be able to call.

[catfish_01]

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So basically, I'd bet the flop and shut down if called. c/c flop might get a bit more value from worse hands, but it also invites a river or turn bluff that you might not be able to call.

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A sane but aggro villian might think you're FOS if you cbet and call with hands like TT-QQ, and try to see a cheap showdown in position--I think you're right there.

But if you check and call, do those worse hands really want to try to bluff you on later streets when you've got alot committed in the pot already? Do they think your check-call is more FOS than a lead? I don't think so.

It's still pretty tricky to decide whether or not to lead vs. an aggro villian, and I'd narrow my decision down more based on how they bet on later streets in big pots, but as a default I think I'm sold on the idea of a check-call getting more value from those hands worse than TT+.

[the machine]

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So you think he won't fire twice with these pairs? I think that is reasonable. catfish has a very good point there. I wonder how the rest of the hand went down.

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i led 20 on the turn. he min raised and i called off my last 13. AK goot. i told myself ill bet and fold to a raise but then i just said [censored] it and stuck the rest in cause im a fish

[corsakh]

Bet.