Razz: Defending with a 9 or 10 on 3rd

[Johnny#5]

The most important and most obvious variable is your opponent. Your hand is stronger than over 70% of random (xx)5 hands so if he is the type that autoraises every time here then folding is definitely not what you want to do. I would do as Andy advises and reraise in this case. Yes it defines my hand but I know I am getting the best of it here and want to play a bigger pot. If he only raises 75-80% here I wouldn't raise and would either call or fold depending on my opinion of his later street play. If he raises less than about 75% I would most likely just fold this 3-handed since the pot is so small and my hand doesn't play that well here.

The next most important thing is the pot size and what odds you're getting to call. Obviously the more antes in the pot and better odds you're getting the more you're going to peel. 85 versus 52 or an A up instead of a 5 aren't too significant imo. He's either stealing or he's not and I don't think this affects your odds enough to make a big difference.

[Johnny#5]

I just read some of the responses. If they're right and the correct play is to fold 952 to a raise by a random 5 3-handed then it's little wonder razz is so unpopular.

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Against villain's two random hole cards you're only a small (55/45) favorite to win the hand if it's all-in on 3rd st. anyway.

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I'm somewhat skeptical of this statement. Can someone verify this please? I suspect you're a greater favorite than this. There are many hands that you're a mile ahead of:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 183911 36.78 315334 63.07 755 0.15 0.369
As 3c 2d 315334 63.07 183911 36.78 755 0.15 0.631

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 213677 42.74 285675 57.13 648 0.13 0.428
8s 3c 2d 285675 57.13 213677 42.74 648 0.13 0.572

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 316548 63.31 183329 36.67 123 0.02 0.633
Js 3c 7d 183329 36.67 316548 63.31 123 0.02 0.367

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 371307 74.26 128618 25.72 75 0.01 0.743
Js 3c Td 128618 25.72 371307 74.26 75 0.01 0.257

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 407459 81.49 92231 18.45 310 0.06 0.815
Js 5c Qd 92231 18.45 407459 81.49 310 0.06 0.185

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 329663 65.93 170261 34.05 76 0.02 0.659
7s 3c 3h 170261 34.05 329663 65.93 76 0.02 0.341

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2c 9d 5h 428319 85.66 71380 14.28 301 0.06 0.857
Qs 5c 5d 71380 14.28 428319 85.66 301 0.06 0.143

Not all those hands have a 5 in them but whatever. There are lots of paired combos and two-brick combos that he can have that play terribly against our hand. The nuts on 3rd only has us at 63/37 and we're only 55/45 or worse against about the top 30% of his hands. A lot of his hands just plain suck. I hate thinking about folding to all those [censored] hands, I really hope it isn't correct to do so.

[Micturition Man]

Johnny#5 -

You are 59/41 with the 952 v. a 5 up.

[Johnny#5]

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If he has you beat already (which is close to 40% of the time!), you are getting three-bet here.

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Grapes, by my calculations we have the same or better hand than him about 73% of the time. Are you sure about this?

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
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If he has you beat already (which is close to 40% of the time!), you are getting three-bet here.

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Grapes, by my calculations we have the same or better hand than him about 73% of the time. Are you sure about this?

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I didn't read grapes post but I believe that is incorrect.

According to some calculations I did a while ago a low card will have a 9 or better 35% of the time. And we beat some of his 9's so it's better than that.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Johnny#5 -

You are 59/41 with the 952 v. a 5 up.

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Mic is right. Check the folliwing link for the relevant equity sim:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

I got my original numbers by running the sim with two unpaired hole cards to allow for the fact that the 5 may not raise with his worst possible hands, and I got 57/43 which I rounded off. Remember, if the pot is small it makes it less worth defending but also less worth stealing.

That being said, don't play your hands just by equity sims. There's a lot more to the game than that, even in razz.

[TheThinMan]

Another reason to raise is that the ante is high, hence you should play looser and faster.

[Sp00n]

I bring-in-re-raise constant stealers with a smooth 9 or better. I feel it is the only option, forcing the villian to define his hand. I only ever call a stealer with a 10 up if I have a 2 card 6 in the hole and am feeling lucky against a non-stop stealer. Anything worse I just muck.

[grapes]

[ QUOTE ]
I bring-in-re-raise constant stealers with a smooth 9 or better. I feel it is the only option, forcing the villian to define his hand. I only ever call a stealer with a 10 up if I have a 2 card 6 in the hole and am feeling lucky against a non-stop stealer. Anything worse I just muck.

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But your reraise doesn't "force" him to define his hand. There's no reason he can't occasionally just call with an 8, or three-bet with a 10, or three-bet on a total bluff. It happens more often than you might think, and isn't even that bad of a play considering your exposed nine puts you in a weak spot on later streets.

The second problem with the reraise comes up when fourth street comes bad. If he three-bets you, indicating a good hand, and then he catches good on 4th while you catch bad (so he is showing something like 5-6 against your 9-Q), now what do you do?

Do you fold immediately after putting in 3 bets on third? Doesn't seem like a very good strategy. Do you see fifth despite the fact you could very well be a 5-1 dog?

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bring-in-re-raise constant stealers with a smooth 9 or better. I feel it is the only option, forcing the villian to define his hand. I only ever call a stealer with a 10 up if I have a 2 card 6 in the hole and am feeling lucky against a non-stop stealer. Anything worse I just muck.

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But your reraise doesn't "force" him to define his hand. There's no reason he can't occasionally just call with an 8, or three-bet with a 10, or three-bet on a total bluff. It happens more often than you might think, and isn't even that bad of a play considering your exposed nine puts you in a weak spot on later streets.

The second problem with the reraise comes up when fourth street comes bad. If he three-bets you, indicating a good hand, and then he catches good on 4th while you catch bad (so he is showing something like 5-6 against your 9-Q), now what do you do?

Do you fold immediately after putting in 3 bets on third? Doesn't seem like a very good strategy. Do you see fifth despite the fact you could very well be a 5-1 dog?

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Very good points grapes. Essentially by reraising you're not slowing down an aggressive player, you're just playing into his hands. It's kind of like saying if you have Q9s in the BB in HE, and the button raises 100% of the time when it's folded to him. You're about a 57/43 fave against his two random cards, so you should reraise him right? Except imagine that you have to turn over your 9 and the button gets to keep both his hole cards down. That's a little closer to this kind of situation in razz.