How to extract the most from nuts?

[Airharley]

Sure we put in a lot of money, but the question was how to extract the most from the nuts. I guess that's my reasoning, if you want to extract a lot, you play long ball on hands like this. It seems like a playing style preference. When you hit, you hit big, if you don't then that's the risk you take playing a little more aggressively.

[DrJ]

You didn't have the nut flush on the flop - when people are suggesting that you make this raise.

So you're suggesting that the way to make the most when you get the nuts is to get as many chips in the middle as possible when you have a draw to the nuts? Sure, I guess I can agree with that. Only problem is all of the times where it doesn't come through...and if you're laying poor odds to get there it doesn't seem a very effective strategy.

[Airharley]

Then you evaluate after his play on the turn, I understand we didn't have the nuts on the flop, but we did had a decent hand. Just because a tight player raises from UTG doesn't always mean he flopped a set. I guess the biggest problem is if the villain decides to push after our raise. Then it really depends on if I want to gamble early, and what the stack sizes are. I just don't think it's such a terrible play to raise this flop.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure we put in a lot of money, but the question was how to extract the most from the nuts. I guess that's my reasoning, if you want to extract a lot, you play long ball on hands like this. It seems like a playing style preference. When you hit, you hit big, if you don't then that's the risk you take playing a little more aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]You cannot make money of hitting the nuts if you don't get there. If you get the money in on this flop, then you made money by sucking out, not playing the nuts well. And if you fold villain out on the flop you won't hit the nuts either.

Point is, playing a strong draw aggressively is fine- but always remember what you are trying to accomplish. In this hand playing aggressively will only either get us all in as a dog or fold out villain before he pays off our big hand.

[BlueEcho]

[ QUOTE ]

Point is, playing a strong draw aggressively is fine- but always remember what you are trying to accomplish. In this hand playing aggressively will only either get us all in as a dog or fold out villain before he pays off our big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

This should end the arguement for raising the flop.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you evaluate after his play on the turn, I understand we didn't have the nuts on the flop, but we did had a decent hand. Just because a tight player raises from UTG doesn't always mean he flopped a set. I guess the biggest problem is if the villain decides to push after our raise. Then it really depends on if I want to gamble early, and what the stack sizes are. I just don't think it's such a terrible play to raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't have a set, then you just folded him out of the hand and aren't going to make any more money off of him. Either with what is presumably the best hand RIGHT now, or when you actually hit your nuts. That's not desirable of course.

If he does have a set, he may push as you suggested and you either have to make a tough call or have been priced off of your powerful draw. Neither are desirable results. Or at best case, he calls and you just out in a lot of money in as a dog. Not desirable either, until this fortunate turn came.

What exactly does the raise accomplish outside of getting a lot of chips in the middle on a hand that could turn into a powerhouse?

[Eratosthenes]

Call the flop for reasons others have stated.

Bet enough on the turn so that a set makes a mistake by calling. A more or less PSB would be good.

As long as the river doesn't pair the board, I would choose between pushing and making a smaller value bet so that he can make a crying call. I would make that decision based on how he reacts to my turn bet and how it feels.

I think he's going to fold top pair or QQ or something stupid on the turn pretty often here. You might extract from those hands by checking the turn and value betting the river. I don't think that is your best play over the long run.

[Airharley]

[ QUOTE ]
Point is, playing a strong draw aggressively is fine- but always remember what you are trying to accomplish. In this hand playing aggressively will only either get us all in as a dog or fold out villain before he pays off our big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what your saying, I still don't know if I see it as a cut and dry call, but well put. I see how risky a raise really is here.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
raising this flop after a tight UTG raises/pots it is anywhere from 'meh' to pretty ugly, BTW, because you will either win 500 chips or be all in as a dog the vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mind a flat call on the flop. Raising to 1500 or even pushing the flop is OK too. I don't think it is a bad semibluff, but flat calling and drawing is reasonable, since villain likely has a set, straight, overpair, or TPTK.

Yeh, if you are called you are probably a dog, 37% against KK, 39% against JJ/TT, or 42% against AQ. You are 48% against AA or 53% against KJ.

I think this hand needs to be presented step by step. It is hard to answer for the turn without knowing the flop action.

[Strickly Bidness]

[ QUOTE ]
raising this flop after a tight UTG raises/pots it is anywhere from 'meh' to pretty ugly, BTW, because you will either win 500 chips or be all in as a dog the vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would we call this hand "Way ahead, or not too far behind"?