PS 5-10 AK 3bet pot

[ArturiusX]

So he knows what we have when we push, and if we call.

[TheWorstPlayer]

right. so fold.

[Gary Stevenson]

i think that's TWP's main argument, though it seems based on some assumptions that i dont think are always true

[BobboFitos]

twp, you are making some faulty assumptions.
1. you give too much credit to wot's hand range... dub rr him pf, and altho dubbie is quite a bit nittier then say me, he' still a solid TAG so his hand range isnt the classic aa/kk/ak.
2. dub checked the flop so his hand looks like nothing, since on this board, 2flush and 2 broadways, you think any overpair bets or tptk etc... cant wot fire with alot of hands? some of which are better, obv, 99 88 etc, but some of which are not, Aq or missed hand etc.
3. reason a raise is nice is alot of those better hands - the underpairs - can prolly label dub's hand with some degree of certainty. but needing 30% equity or so, and if dub has AhK, AhQ, AxKh, AxQh, just weight some hands which have those underpairs dead (like a set or flush) or 2 outs (overpair). certainly its within dub's capabilities of checking a hand. who knows, maybe he checked 88 and spiked a set, too. so even tho dub has what he has alot, alot of those hands cant call..
4. so when called say set or overpair, dub has roughly 33% equity or so. check the fold equity required to see why moving in is +EV.
5. the other thing to mention is if wot can ever bet/call a worse hand, like AxKh or AxQh, which is unlikely but possible, we are freerolling in a huge pot, which is a great chunk of equity.
6. about calling, i showed why you can call and ignore implied odds. factoring them in, you really cant fold here. its call or push.
7. if you call, clearly there will be some tough choices on the river. if we improve tho, our line looks so weak - rr pf, the check, then just call turn - why cant that also induce a bluff push? so many posters feel wot is capable of that, and whatever improves dub's hand here also serves as a scare card to what could be a real marginal hand (i dont know dub's rr range, but KJ, AJ, whatever)

im arguing in circles at this point, but hopefully my point is clear enough.

[Gary Stevenson]

not sure i agree with point 4. rob, i doubt he's ever calling a shove with those hands, though it's not 100% of course.
7. is a really good argument for the calling crowd. WOT is by no means a nit so he's obviously capable of turning whatever he has into a bluff on the river if a scare card hits and he thinks he can push me off. OTOH, he could try to make a heroic call with say a set if the Q hits, or call with a pp <AA with a heart if the flush hits. the hand doesn't always come to a hault if i call and one of the draws hits as TWP argued
*edit- took out KK from making a heroic call, thought it would have hit the lower straight

[Big_Jim]

Folding the turn is lol.

We BARELY even need implied odds here, even if we only play for the Q/non pairing flush.