The status of mid-limit games in Vegas

[Don Olney]

Mason,
If a room here in town were to offer a 2+2 tournament, do you think the posters here would be willing to pay a $40 per head fee for a $165 buy-in?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason,
If a room here in town were to offer a 2+2 tournament, do you think the posters here would be willing to pay a $40 per head fee for a $165 buy-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize you're asking Mason but I'll put in two cents anyway.

Any 2+2 function should be in large part social; most of us wouldn't expect to be a financial favorite after the rake or fees.

A standard tournament eliminates players, something you don't want to do to keep it social. Of course if the staff would then spread various HOE, HOSE, HORSE, CHORSEL, BOT and other small mix games as players get knocked out (hopefully in the same area) it might work socially along with a nice food spread.

A real innovator might try a tournament format where the tournament tables don't break and "most money won" determines the prize pool. I realize the fee might have to be a bit higher (since more dealer time is used) but for bragging rights this sort of thing might work.

~ Rick

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason,
If a room here in town were to offer a 2+2 tournament, do you think the posters here would be willing to pay a $40 per head fee for a $165 buy-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite what Mason had in mind, but close. I cannot comment further at this time because although I am privy to whats on Mason's mind, its best to spring this on you guys and gals when the time is right. Mason's got some good ideas for B&M integration, we just need to help push them along a bit before the details are laid out. No need counting chickens before they hatch right?

[Gk123]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example. Suppose a cardroom was to run Two Plus Two tournaments, had a couple of our authors make presentations, had special room rates and buffet discounts for Two Plus Two posters, met our standards (what ever they might be) in terms of dealer and floor personel management, and most important, participated in these discussions instead of being afraid that they and their rooms would be criticized as if they aren't already. (Managers, I know for a fact that TT and Clarkmeister don't bite.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If a cardroom in Vegas were to follow this example it would quickly become known as a miserable place to play.

Sadly I know from 10 years experience that "Tourists" generally don't want to play with 2+2ers. It has nothing to do with skill level, the vast majority of "Tourists" are fully aware of the fact that they aren't going to win. People who come into town don't want to hear about strategy, how bad they play, or notice a group of people who are obviously a "click" of professional players. They just want to play and enjoy themselves.
I'm not saying that all 2+2ers are cry babies who openly talk about hands at the table and degrade weaker players. What I am saying is that FAR too many 2+2ers act like this.
There is nothing wrong with catering to certain players, just make sure the players you are catering to are players that "Tourists" want to play with.

Not all of the Poker Room Managers that haven't contacted you are idiots. Some have just realized only 2+2ers would be excited by the prospects.

Not to mention the fact that there is a much more cost effective way to build a middle limit player base. Something I have no interest in sharing with anyone who doesn't pay me.

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that all 2+2ers are cry babies who openly talk about hands at the table and degrade weaker players. What I am saying is that FAR too many 2+2ers act like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many 2+2r's have you played with? I think not many.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with skill level, the vast majority of "Tourists" are fully aware of the fact that they aren't going to win. People who come into town don't want to hear about strategy, how bad they play, or notice a group of people who are obviously a "click" of professional players. They just want to play and enjoy themselves.
I'm not saying that all 2+2ers are cry babies who openly talk about hands at the table and degrade weaker players. What I am saying is that FAR too many 2+2ers act like this.
There is nothing wrong with catering to certain players, just make sure the players you are catering to are players that "Tourists" want to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) The vast majority of "2+2"ers are not good poker players, and are in fact good for the game.

2) In Vegas games are built around players like this, it actually attracts the tourists. Without this player base or regulars who think they are good players, the tourists wont come. Using Mason's suggestion the regulars are augmented by tourists who think they are good players, attracting tourists who are pure producers. Its a lot more favorable than you think.

[goodgrief]

I agree with this post. I've noticed that the meta-game of professional mid limit players is terrible. Not all of them but many or most of them seem to be more interested in being known as know-it-alls or professionals than in taking down the money. I don't want to hear about pot odds, strategy, pokertracker, online play, or anything else remotely technical being discussed at the table. I don't want to hear people yelling at the fish for drawing out on them. I realize that poker is somewhat of a haven for people who have social problems and who can't get a real job, but some of these people honestly need to get a grip. If you don't know how to behave in a social setting, just STFU. There is no law that requires you to converse at the poker table if you are fundamentally incapable of talking nicely with your marks. And the cursing of the marks is just not on. Does your bank curse you out when you take out a loan? No, don't think so.

There is a genuine problem with self-appointed crybaby professionals who have no self-control and no understanding of variance.

I can't agree with TT's rebuttal. In my admittedly brief trip to Vegas, I several times noticed miserably smelly obnoxious bipolar weak-tight locals who chased away the calling stations and especially couldn't tolerate the action player. Yeah, I profited from the weak-tights but I feel I would have profited more from the action players. And the action players smell better. Of course that is only a relatively inexperienced player's impression. But I'm not seeing why a player with a negative expectation would necessarily feel like he's getting good value for his entertainment dollar at these games.




[ QUOTE ]
.
I'm not saying that all 2+2ers are cry babies who openly talk about hands at the table and degrade weaker players. What I am saying is that FAR too many 2+2ers act like this.
There is nothing wrong with catering to certain players, just make sure the players you are catering to are players that "Tourists" want to play with.



[/ QUOTE ]

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I several times noticed miserably smelly obnoxious bipolar weak-tight locals who chased away the calling stations and especially couldn't tolerate the action player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your typical Vegas midlimit "pro" from 8-16 through 30-60. Players who really should know better, many of whom I know well, simply can't seem to help themselves. They must berate, snicker, comment, etc. It's pathetic.

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I several times noticed miserably smelly obnoxious bipolar weak-tight locals who chased away the calling stations and especially couldn't tolerate the action player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your typical Vegas midlimit "pro" from 8-16 through 30-60. Players who really should know better, many of whom I know well, simply can't seem to help themselves. They must berate, snicker, comment, etc. It's pathetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've now played with several 2+2ers in Vegas and in Los Angeles. I believe that strategy chat is minimal, and muted at that. To the point that I didn't realize that there were several 2+2'ers in a game I played in at Bellagio some time back, until I read posts on this board and recognized the game.

The nits being refered to generally do not read 2+2(I don't think) and are marginal players at best.

FWIW, if you read the medium stakes limit holdem board here, action is encouraged/advocated with a particular emphasis on opening up your game in late position. So weak/tighties need not apply.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

There is a genuine problem with self-appointed crybaby professionals who have no self-control and no understanding of variance.

I can't agree with TT's rebuttal. In my admittedly brief trip to Vegas, I several times noticed miserably smelly obnoxious bipolar weak-tight locals who chased away the calling stations and especially couldn't tolerate the action player. Yeah, I profited from the weak-tights but I feel I would have profited more from the action players.

[/ QUOTE ]

remember the weak tight local who makes the snide comments are no better or no worse than the 21 year old 2+2'er who cant grasp variance. Both consumers will make the occasional snide comment, which of course is usually not good for the game (nobody is perfect, its steam). I wouldn't want a table full of weak tight locals, nor would I want a table full of 2+2 "why am I not winning" whiners who are spewing too many bets into the pot - but a balance of the two can make for a particularly good table in Vegas once the action sits in. A good game in the mid limits is often a tossed salad, you need a balance of player types since the pure action games of places like LA, Phoenix, or LA doesn't exist as often.