The status of mid-limit games in Vegas

[*TT*]

My night started out at Red Rock, I was working nearby and was jonesing for a Fat Burger and I had only a dime in my back pocket so i thought it would be fun to sit down and play some 8/16 with the locals. Last two times I went to Red Rock 8/16 was the highest limit they spread with one table going, so I gave it a shot. When I arrived at 7pm there was a list 7 names deep, I added my name and asked the brush if they are willing to start the game at 8 players, he said "speak to the manager, he probably wont do it" so I took his advice. The manager told me their policy was to only start a game when the list was 14 people deep, because they dont want the game to break. I asked him whats better for the poker room's bottom line, risking a game that breaks in 2 hours or no game at all - he gave me the most surly look a poker room manager ever gave and said "thats the way we do things around here, do you want to be on the list or not?" I said sure but what happens if the game is spread while I am getting diner? Is there a paging system? I'd hate for the table to not go just because I'm away from the poker room. The manager replied something incoherent, but essentially I think it meant tough luck if that happens. Sooo I went had had my fat burger, came back and saw one person was added to the list - so I decided to play in another room which I rarely visit; the Venetian.

As most of us know the Venetian is running a very low rake promotion right now to try and build mid-limit games. If you have been following the topics in B&M the posters who are knowlegable about poker room theory have all agreed that a rake rebate is a bad thing in the long run, although in the short run it will probably help bring some local action into the room (locals attract tourists who happen to be in the area and like to see a busy card room). In the three times I have visted in the past 2 weeks only once has a limit game bigger than 4/8 been spread. My first trip was on a Sunday, they were spreading 8/16 and 15/30 as well as a special 10/20 Triple Draw game (yum!) all with $1 rake. My second trip was on a Saturday evening around 11pm, they only had an 8/16 rotation game, 8/16 and higher hold'em had interest lists but the games didn't spread (they were also spreading a 50/100 NL game =, but that is not a regular list of course). And finally on this trip the room was only 1/4 full, and the lists for 8/16 and 15/30 were no more than 4 names deep - AT 9PM! My opinion remains - the V management cannot save the room at this stage, their policies are bad for action and players. The only way to save the V at this point, a room that should be a world class poker destination, is to remove the executive level decision makers - Kathryn has to go, she needs to be replaced by a visionary that understands the Las Vegas market.

I next went to the Mirage, I figured I'd play 10/20 or 20/40 - whatever is available. The Mirage room was 1/2 empty, and the dealers were all (except for one) slow as molasses. What was once a world class room is now an empty shell of its former self, the staff is sub par at best. So sad to see the Mirage become an aging dinosaur. Played 10/20 for 3 hours, and as usually my experience was very different from most you hear about that game - it was super soft, not filled with tight local nits. There was only one tough spot in the game, since his hand reading skills were poor and he missed value bets on the river the game became dreamlike. +24 bets, I didn't lose a single pot the entire session when I went to showdown. Best hand was when I raised an UTG limper with TT, surly & spew-prone button 3-bet, and we both call. Flop comes 255 rainbow. I c/r the field, he 3-bets and its now HU - believe it or not his range has now been narrowed down to any pair, AK, AQ, AJ, and ATs. The lower pairs might give him a gutshot at best [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I check to him with a 7 - completing the rainbow is shown and he sheepishly checks behind on the turn. River pairs the board and I say "what, did you raise the flop with a flush draw? I have to bet", steam comes out of his ears. I can tell he was prepared to fold originally but he suddenly stops and says "are you trying to give me a lesson? I think I will call you because I can't be taught" - he tosses in his 4 chips while staring into my soul and then mucks his hand after 30 seconds of angry looks, checking and double checking the board. Suffice to say I had a new best friend for this session, and he donked off a lot of chips to me - making huge laydowns, finding folds left and right for now on - I love it when a meta-plan comes together!

Cliff Notes: Red Rock manager is more concerned about getting hell from the locals than he is about the poker rooms bottom line (standard for Vegas), Venetian can't get a game spread bigger than 4/8 (Standard for Vegas, not standard for a world class room), and Mirage is the only room left besides Bellagio and Wynn where you can almost guarantee a mid limit game will be spread - the key word is almost. net result - Vegas limit game action isnt what most people think it is. Outside of the Bellagio and the Wynn (which is struggling to maintain them as well, but has a decent enough list of limit games on an average night) none of the other rooms in town can be trusted to spread a mid-limit game.

[D-FENS]

I was at Venetian Friday night and just assumed the 8-16 was going. Nope. Had to settle for 4-8. I couldn't believe it. It was a Friday at 9PM and all they had was a damn "interest list."

[Esso]

Great post.

I am curious about your takeaway from this. Is limit poker really dying, like every tells me it is? Is it just a down cycle? Or are these rooms just generally run by incompetent boobs? Is it time to cut bait and make the move to NL?

[Clarkmeister]

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Vegas limit game action isnt what most people think it is

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I've been saying for a little bit now that midlimit is a dinosaur in this town. For all practical purposes, the Bellagio is now the only room for those games on a reliable basis. NL is the game of today and for the forseeable future.

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The only way to save the V at this point, a room that should be a world class poker destination, is to remove the executive level decision makers

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Disagree that a management change could "save" the room. I don't know that any management could succeed in that location. The only hope is that the new tower and potentially better parking will help. If it is to be saved, focusing on midlimit is a waste of time and totally the wrong path at this point. It's like focusing on Stud in 2000.

[icepick]

God, I hope NL never comes to Canterbury.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
net result - Vegas limit game action isnt what most people think it is. Outside of the Bellagio and the Wynn (which is struggling to maintain them as well, but has a decent enough list of limit games on an average night) none of the other rooms in town can be trusted to spread a mid-limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what myself, and a few other posters have said over the past 6 months. Yet, everytime it's posted, we get scorned and scoffed at because "it just isn't true" when it damn sure is.

[Frond]

Glad I read this. I was always under the assumption that there was always mid limit HE games going in Vegas at a myriad of places. I've been reading Cookes book right so that may have been influencing me a bit.

[cdlarmore]

Caesars, The bellagio will always have a mid limit game, sometimes wynn does as well, I love caesars, great action, great staff, and if u play quite a bit they give u a room discount.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Red Rock manager is more concerned about getting hell from the locals than he is about the poker rooms bottom line (standard for Vegas)

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This needs to be quoted and requoted.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Caesars, The bellagio will always have a mid limit game, sometimes wynn does as well, I love caesars, great action, great staff, and if u play quite a bit they give u a room discount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ceasars NEVER has a mid-limit game when i have visted their room. I dont know any mid-limit players that include it on its stop.