Rebuys for home Tournaments - YES or NO

[pfapfap]

Hello, Arnold, welcome to the forum.

You've established that you don't like rebuy/addon tournaments. That's fine. However, there are many different structures of tournaments, each with their own advantages and strategies. I feel you're viewing an addon tournament through the filter of a freezeout tournament, which is stunting your growth as an all-around player, but to each his own.

[Lottery Larry]

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You could ALSO say "I can stick with my T10K for my original buy-in, get everyone else to double their investment and STILL have a 30% lead on the larger stacks."


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In the book <u>Poker Tournament Formula</u>, Arnold Snyder gives extensive mathematical analysis showing why, as he says: Always buy the extra chips.... It would take far too much space to try to repeat it here, but the gist is that no matter how good you are, a bad beat could take most or all of your chips, so when others do the add-on, you have to as well in order to defend your position.

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I don't know if I agree completely, but you reminded me that I still hadn't ordered that book yet to check it out.
If you're gaining less than 5-10% growth to your stack, I'd argue that the double equity cost isn't worth it.


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This does not change the fact that your percentage lead goes down after an add-on. What may or may not happen after your lead goes down is not really germane to the fact that after the add-on, you are working from a reduced advantage. It's hard to put a good spin on that.



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I DEFINATELY disagree here. Your lead hasn't diminished if you and he add on. Only your stack's relative size to the next largest has "shrunken".

Whether that's enough of a penalty to significantly affect your chances of success is a moot point.... but if you'd argue it IS, then your statement about playing brilliantly to build your big stack loses some of its validity, doesn't it?

As for being forced to buy in for this situation, I'd take the 20% lead loss for a 50% gain in cost equity, relative to the add-on players. You give me a 42% chip lead and put in twice as much money, I'll take those odds every day and twice on Saturdays.


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Again, I refer you to the analysis in the book for why the above statement is wrong (according to the author).



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When it gets here, I'l see how I feel about his argument.

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And there's even more reason why an average player who has had a good run should not like to see a substantial part of his percentage lead taken away.

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One MIGHT argue that the average player's going to have to get lucky no MATTER their stack size, so this might be a relative cushion anyway....

but that's semantics.

[Lottery Larry]

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...there are a few members that are anti-rebuys, their argument is that if they beat someone, that person should not get a second chance to get their chips back.

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I've never really understood this argument. One way to pitch it to them might be that it's as if they are playing a tournament with twice as many players... but they're all twins AND they move to your table with a shorter stack than you EVERY time.

If someone can then explain to me why they wouldn't like this, then I might be willing to accept their initial argument against rebuys.

[pismeyer]

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I don't like rebuys because they reward crazy play, but I do like rebuys because they result in a lot bigger prizes. For me, the bigger prizes win out since the rebuys are mostly dead money anyway.


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For the record, I've only allowed two rebuy tournaments this year, full price for the same amount of starting chips and the rebuy took place before level 4 (best recollection).

Niether one of the players made it to the money or even bubbled. My only conclusion is that both of these players were not that good at playing cards and did the rebuy only to NOT sit around until the next game.

The majority of the players I play with do not like rebuys. We vote before each game and the majority usually rules. Add-ons are very popular. (ie. $X = extra T400 in chips or what ever amount). Some of the players do not even buy the addon offered, only one of those players has made it to the money.

Me personally, I like rebuys, I like the fact it boost the pot size and keeps all players in the game. No one likes to sit out, or deal the remainder of the game (I know this for a fact). Most of the players I play with like tournament play and do not like cash games (yet - I'm working on it.)

The responses to this thread have been incredible. I've been lurking in back reading each post. Thanks to all that have contributed, the insight and opinions into Tournament Rubuys has amazed me.

P [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[CardSharkGames]

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Hello, Arnold, welcome to the forum.


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Just because I quoted from his book, does that make me him? If so, I must have a really split personality, since I have dozens of poker books and from time-to-time, quote from many of them.


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You've established that you don't like rebuy/addon tournaments.


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How did I "establish" that? My original post started as follows:

I don't like rebuys because they reward crazy play, but I do like rebuys because they result in a lot bigger prizes. For me, the bigger prizes win out since the rebuys are mostly dead money anyway.

But here is another consideration...

...and I went on to present some mathematical analysis that shows that add-ons reduce the percentage lead of the chip leaders.


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That's fine. However, there are many different structures of tournaments, each with their own advantages and strategies...


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And I was discussing those advantages and disadvantages. I would like to think I'm not so close-minded that I can't consider the negatives of something just because I like it overall. How about you?


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I feel you're viewing an addon tournament through the filter of a freezeout tournament, which is stunting your growth as an all-around player, but to each his own.

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You don't know me nor anything about my poker ability. You have misquoted and/or misread me. And yet you presume to tell me not only that my poker growth is stunted but why?

[pfapfap]

Dude, WTF?

[pfapfap]

Put another way, I've given several legitimate points attempting to discuss this with you, and each time you've come back with some tangentical nonsense, not ever addressing what I was saying, each time jumping to wild conclusions and sticking to your preconceptions.

[CardSharkGames]

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Put another way, I've given several legitimate points attempting to discuss this with you, and each time you've come back with some tangentical nonsense, not ever addressing what I was saying, each time jumping to wild conclusions and sticking to your preconceptions.

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In rereading your posts, the only point you seemed to be making was: I view the rebuy period as the goofy cash game beforehand, the winner of which gets a little bonus for the tournament proper.

Given that my original point was the simple mathematical fact that an add-on reduces the chip leader's percentage advantage, your statement above is the one which is "tangentical nonsense". The fact that you consider the rebuy period to be a "goofy cash game" has nothing to do with the math behind the effects of an add-on.

And your last (prior to this one) condescending message about how my "demonstrated" dislike of rebuys (obviously untrue if you read my original post) is "stunting [my] poker growth is just... well, goofy.

[pfapfap]

Ok, fair enough. I find you difficult to talk to, though.

[stevea]

I say no rebuys! Only because I like to start up a cash game as people bust out of the tourney.