Pre-flop raiser doesn't bet the flop heads-up

[Xellos]

At 3/6 this is almost always a huge hand.

I still have no idea what to do when it happens. Perhaps bet-fold the turn or c/c turn/river? Just 3 bet preflop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Leader]

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Just 3 bet preflop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Why?

[x vikram]

I would have 3bet PF to see where i was at, if he capped i think your 99 is no good on this flop

[milesdyson]

i agree with leader.

i check fold at every opportunity. just take a note like

pfr, ck A26 hu ip (in position)

i posted a 66 hand yesterday where the same thing happened only the guy was out of position. he checked the flop and i checked through and he bet the turn and i folded.

i think this whole flop check behind thing is really something to start looking into (from both viewpoints).

[LoaferGee]

Still have no idea. I feel like he could have just been scared with his KT,KQ, etc from that ace, but now after I check twice he's betting it. At the same time, how often would an aggro check that flop with a hand like that? I think it's pretty close between bet/fold, and check-fold, I really hate check-calling. I basically got no further in this post, just rambling :[

[GME]

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That's why I'd 3-bet PF. The hand gets a lot simpler.

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enjoy:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=

LoaferGee:

His check is pretty concerning IMO. I can only really see this happening for three reasons: he's going moron with AK or something similarly big; he has a weak made hand now which was strong pf and wants to SD as cheaply as possible; or he's seen you call/cr in the past and figures he's better off taking a free card with KQ/KJ/QJ. None of these cases look partially good for us. Therefore, I'd c/f.

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I've said before and I'll say again, I don't think the StellarWind logic applies to medium pocket pairs. When you've got sevens through nines, the flop is not your friend. You will almost never know whether the flop helped you or hurt you. Meanwhile, your opponent generally will know how the flop affected him.

Therefore, I continue to believe that when you've got a medium PP, it does indeed simplify your postflop play to 3-bet pre-flop. I should also add that it makes you money, as you almost certainly have an equity edge vs. your opponent's stealing range.

Finally, I just want to point out, it's probable StellarWind has a larger post-flop advantage than the average player on this board, so maybe it behooves him to take more complicated decisions later in hand, whereas it may behoove most of us to take easier decisions earlier in a hand.

[Leader]

I don't agree, but I've got to sleep. I'll try to get a response in to your post tomorrow.

[Leader]

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I've said before and I'll say again, I don't think the StellarWind logic applies to medium pocket pairs. When you've got sevens through nines, the flop is not your friend. You will almost never know whether the flop helped you or hurt you. Meanwhile, your opponent generally will know how the flop affected him.

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I don't think it's any more true with 99 then any other hand that you don't know whether the flop helped you or hurt you. Some people may not have the skills to recognize which flops help them, but that's a skill deficient for them that they need to work on. A flop like J53 is a decent flop for us. That may not be readily apparent to every one. Sure there are bad flops out there, but there always are. Part of the advantage of the call/cr strategy is that you can drop some of the worst ones. I don't agree that the flop is easier for villain to play. He may think it is incidentally if he has something like AK, but if we're doing this with AQ down to something like JTs, then he's going to be folding a lot of turns incorrectly.

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Therefore, I continue to believe that when you've got a medium PP, it does indeed simplify your postflop play to 3-bet pre-flop.

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I don't see this. Much of post flop is based on experience. Part of it being simple is that you've seen the situation before. You say that we shouldn't call/cr because it complicates post flop. Well I say that post flop is complicated because you don't call/cr enough.

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I should also add that it makes you money, as you almost certainly have an equity edge vs. your opponent's stealing range.

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This is a mute point. If he bets every flop and you cr every flop you have the same advantage as if you had 3-bet he had call and you had bet every flop. If he starts checking flops, that's great.

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Finally, I just want to point out, it's probable StellarWind has a larger post-flop advantage than the average player on this board, so maybe it behooves him to take more complicated decisions later in hand,

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I don't agree that they are more complicated.

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whereas it may behoove most of us to take easier decisions earlier in a hand.

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That kind of thinking just isn't going to make you a better player. You learn to play better partly by finding new situations and learning how to play correctly in them. I'd much rather learn to call/cr with 99 and make some mistakes with it at 5/10 so that I have that weapon if I need it at 10/20 or above.

[Dave G.]

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I would have 3bet PF to see where i was at, if he capped i think your 99 is no good on this flop

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This is a blind situation. A lot of people will cap with less than premium hands just to keep the initiative, and bet the flop unimproved. 3-betting to "see where you are at" is pointless and unhelpful, and is a good way to commit too much money to a hand.

3-betting PF places betting impetus on you when you will be out of position, which more often than not just leads to further postflop spewing as you try and push him off his hand in hopeless situations. When so many flops can hurt you, this is bad. The call/cr line is far superior IMO. It allows you to get away from nasty flops like this with minimal investment.

As for the original hand... if he's seen you take this line many times, he may just be trying to avoid your inevitable checkraise. He may have a note on you that says you like this play. Or he could have flopped hard and done the usual check-behind-the-set-of-aces play. Betting the turn might be good... fold if he pushes back obviously.

[GetThere1Time]

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That's why I'd 3-bet PF. The hand gets a lot simpler.

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enjoy:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=



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I just woke up. Once I read that post 2 or 15 times I'll get back to you. I wasn't really aware there was a back story. I wish OP would have posted the Stellarwind thread when he posted the hand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].