Wait till river to c/r TP

[tolbiny]

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Tom, you are harping too much on the KQ itself which was just me using hyperbole to say I don't need much of a hand to think about calling a river checkraise when the play doesn't make a lot of sense and can be a bluff. We all agree that people call too much, and yet you disagree that a decent player can checkraise top pair for value on the river? I am saying that if the OP folds Ax here on the river to a checkraise frequently, his opponents should be CR bluffing the river A LOT more than they probably do.


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Chris,
that post was a joke (mostly). But i think this thread does bring up some good issues.

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We all agree that people call too much, and yet you disagree that a decent player can checkraise top pair for value on the river?

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calling to much =! valuebetting the river with tp and a weak kicker or worse, and calling a c/r being >50% of a players range.

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I am saying that if the OP folds Ax here on the river to a checkraise frequently, his opponents should be CR bluffing the river A LOT more than they probably do.

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Sure, but he will fold occasionally and those hands will always be worse than AT which again hurts his chances of being ahead when called 50% of the time.

On another note to those who mention that players bluffing frequency will be enough to call in these situations with a weak Ace, i am inclined to agree. The overall bluffing frequency of my opponents is probably over 10% (i would guess it might be in the 15-17% range), but this is due in large part to a handfull of players who c/r bluff far to much, a few players who are in the correct range and to many who don't bluff enough. The first group generally are easy to spot and having played with someone enough to figure out that they are not in this group makes this a pretty easy fold with Ax here for me.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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If this is the case then shouldn't good player always checkraise bluff a missed spade or heart flush draw on the end? Why don't us good 2+2 tags checkraise bluff the river more? Oh yeah, because people call with everything...hmmm

-DeathDonkey

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Yesterday online I check/raised a tag on the river with 86 on a AT6K3 board. He insta-called with 64 and we chopped it up.

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So you agree with me?


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Yeah, that was my way of saying I agree with you Deathdonkey. People call with everything.

[admiralfluff]

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"I usually fold all my one pair Ax hands"

is that really possible with a WSD of 39? i usually CALL this checkraise and my wsd is 35.

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Yes. Absolutely. Many river c/rs are easy calls, but against this particular player, with this particular board, he will virtually never be bluffing. So why would I call?

Also: WtSD is NOT analogous to %call river bet, or %call river c/r. It is not necessarily a measure of how weak a hand someone will pay off with, but almost everyone uses it as such.

There are several aspects of my game that are conducive to me getting to SD. I play very aggressively preflop (look at the difference between my VPIP and PFR) which means when I am in a pot postflop it is often against a limited field, and I tend to be the aggressor. I play very aggressively on the flop with made hands and draws, I absolutely only take passive calldown lines when I am HU, and then not always.

e.g. For many here the standard line with Ax would be to call/call/call. I think this sucks. On this type of board against this type of opponent I raise Ax ~75% of the time. I also usually raise sets, and flopped decent draws.

So I tend to play hands against few people (force people out preflop), tend to force people postflop before the river, and tend to get checked to a lot. This means I end up checking behind more weak hands at the river (WtSD++) and folding fewer to donks (WtSD--).

cliff notes: Yes I fold against this player always, as he is never bluffing. He will never be in a position to bluff c/r this river. A higher WtSD does not necessarily imply a tendency to call on the river with weaker hands.

[joker122]

"Yes. Absolutely. Many river c/rs are easy calls, but against this particular player, with this particular board, he will virtually never be bluffing. So why would I call?"

wait...this very hand shows he doesn't have to be "bluffing" to CR this river.

[admiralfluff]

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"Yes. Absolutely. Many river c/rs are easy calls, but against this particular player, with this particular board, he will virtually never be bluffing. So why would I call?"

wait...this very hand shows he doesn't have to be "bluffing" to CR this river.

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Exactly? I have played many hands with this player, and know this c/r will never be a bluff. This hand shows he may value c/r light, but given the read, my folding one pair Ax to the c/r is clear and not debatable.

Whether *he thinks* I will fold one pair Ax hands here is another question, and given the general responses in this thread, he probably thinks I always call. (This still does not make his c/r good).