99 OOP in a RR pot

[homeslice]

PF is fine...

Given his stats, I lead flop. If he's got two overcards, he'll most likely will fold. If he's got an overpair JJ+, he'll raise.

[Sir Winalot]

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PF is fine...

Given his stats, I lead flop. If he's got two overcards, he'll most likely will fold. If he's got an overpair JJ+, he'll raise.

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I don't think donking the flop is a very good idea because we're letting villain play his hand perfectly and we're losing lots of value from c-bets. I think hero's line is much better than donking the flop.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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PF is fine...

Given his stats, I lead flop. If he's got two overcards, he'll most likely will fold. If he's got an overpair JJ+, he'll raise.

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I don't think donking the flop is a very good idea because we're letting villain play his hand perfectly and we're losing lots of value from c-bets. I think hero's line is much better than donking the flop.

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Thanks for the responses all, just got around to checking this. The above was kind of my thinking on the flop c/c ... I think a flop c/r is pretty bad as we're putting in a ton of $ with a very marginal holding OOP and we have very little fold equity on hands that are ahead of us. ALso, whiffed overs c-bet this flop like, almost always in my experience (i c-bet overs all the time here).

The more I think about it the more I like a c/c on the flop, but a c/f might be right on the turn (if he has the balls to 2x barrel overs in a RR'd pot he deserves to take it down). Thoughts?

thanks again for the responses.

[Messy Harry]

Fetti,

I posted a similar hand today about playing 9's OOP that I raised UTG. Villain in my hand called on the button instead of re-raising. I lead out with a PSB on a K high flop, was called and I check/folded the turn, which was a Q.

The query of my thread was: was my line weak? It felt that way when I check folded the turn, but I was in a precarious position - literally, OOP, and figuratively, because it could cost me alot to find out I was behind the whole way. So I was interested to see your thread.

Your thread helped me to feel that if you are going to play the hand (as opposed to folding the flop because you didn't hit a set and there is an overcard on board, which is another discussion in itself), you might as well lead the flop because if you don't you don't have an idea where you stand.

You're hand differs from mine in that you had a read on Villain (tight and aggressive) AND he re-raised you PF. If you're not going to fold pre-flop given your position and read, I still think you need to lead the flop and re-evaluate. Once he makes that big flop bet, you are lost and just guessing. I think I would fold to the flop bet given what we know.

Re: whether your turn bet is spew, it's an expensive way to try and find out where villain is for more money than it would have cost you on the flop. You said a check raise on the flop "is pretty bad as we're putting in a ton of $ with a very marginal holding OOP and we have very little fold equity on hands that are ahead of us." BUT, if (and I stress if) you are committed to donking the turn, why not donk a check raise instead? You'll know right away where villain stands. Still, I think we know it's not an ideal way to play the hand.

How did the hand wind up anyway?

[allaboutmyfetti]

Thanks for the response ... overall I feel that betting "to find out where you are at" is highly over-rated

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Your thread helped me to feel that if you are going to play the hand (as opposed to folding the flop because you didn't hit a set and there is an overcard on board, which is another discussion in itself), you might as well lead the flop because if you don't you don't have an idea where you stand.


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leading to "find out where you stand" in this case doesn't seem right. Let's say I lead and villian calls .. what have a learned about his hand? Not much really. Sure if villian folds then I learned I was ahead and probably missed an opportunity to win more by not allowing villian to c-bet. If villian raises AI I'm most likely behind (although vilian could be doign as much with overs + a FD).

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Re: whether your turn bet is spew, it's an expensive way to try and find out where villain is for more money than it would have cost you on the flop.


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My turn bet wasn't to "find out where I was", it was more for value against worse hands and to protect against draws. Again, if i'm the villian here, I take a free card almost always if I whiffed the flop and the opponent c/c'd my turn. I felt a flop bet would fold out overs and I might have some (but not much) FE against JJ, TT. So it's more of a protection bet against draws and a bluff against a few PPs. Granted if villian raises/pushes my turn bet I have "found out where I am" and am tossing the hand, but I didn't bet with that goal in mind.

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You said a check raise on the flop "is pretty bad as we're putting in a ton of $ with a very marginal holding OOP and we have very little fold equity on hands that are ahead of us." BUT, if (and I stress if) you are committed to donking the turn, why not donk a check raise instead?


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I think you mis-used the word "donk" here. Are you advocating a turn c/r here? If villian 2nd barrels the turn I'm pretty sure I'm crushed and have like 0 FE against his range.

[Messy Harry]

Perhaps I did misuse the word donk.

And I am not advocating a check raise. I was just saying that if you were committed to betting a significant amount of money ($18) on turn, perhaps you could have used that $ for a check raise before a card that beats you came off.

[barryc83]

I'd fold pf against an unknown. His range is likely JJ+, AK. I also don't like donking the flop for the reasons mentioned above (you dont even get a cbet out of him when you're ahead). You got barely any hands with this guy, and he doesn't look like a loose player, you gotta give him credit here pf IMO, fold.

By playing the hand the way you did you're just praying he has AK here which is possible, but he could have a lot of other hands too. Playing this hand in a RR pot OOP sucks balls.