Congratulations! You just became the manager of a Vegas poker room!

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
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driving bottom line. Pit players will never be encouraged to play poker instead of pit games...


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But isn't the whole point of this that pit players are going to another casino because we don't have poker? I'm not suggesting we "encourage" them to play poker; merely talk up rotation games over single format games to those who we might otherwise lose to competition.


[/ QUOTE ]

but you didn't say that, you said, pit players moving over to the poker room. You tell that to a suit and they will have a stroke. You have to say, "Damn, we are losing pit players to other properties because they like to play high limit poker from time to time and we need to keep those pit players on our property".

Anything that encourages a pit player to move to poker is dead in the water before its feet ever get wet. Anything that keeps a high limit pit player on the property is worth considering.

Do you think they pick them up at the airport because they like them? Sorry, they want to make sure the arrive at the right casino and don't wander over to the competitor's casino.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
"Damn, we are losing pit players to other properties because they like to play high limit poker from time to time and we need to keep those pit players on our property".

[/ QUOTE ]
My apologies, I assumed that was the whole reason for this exercise was keeping high limit pit players who were wandering over to other properties. I therefore assumed the reader would understand we were only going after pit players who had already expressed 1) a desire to play high limit poker AND 2) the lack thereof in our casino.

[threadkiller]

Let me take an admittedly off-the-wall crack at this (one has to take risks to get ahead in your career...) by first proposing an analogous problem in a different business context, so you all stop thinking about poker for a second.

[ QUOTE ]
A leading research firm makes gazillions of dollars by providing hundreds of bright 22-24 year old graduates from leading universities on 24-hour call to law firms with trials in session. These law firms specialize in personal property cases defending Fortune 100 companies. The cost of the cadre of young talent is a rounding error to the Fortune 100 company; what is important is their ability to jump to action immediately when called upon and produce results which will help the law firm win the case. The rest of the on-call time is their own to hang out, but they have to stay within ten minutes of the office when on call.

How should the research firm keep that cadre filled with the best and brightest and most creative/inquisitive, and not methheads who want to play World of Worlock all day and then not be useful when they are needed?

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you can't figure it out:
- Fortune 100 company = whale who wants to play poker every once in a while
- Law firm = Pit Games division
- Research firm = Poker room
- best and brightest = local 30-60 players
- methheads = nitty 30-60 players worried about a $2 swing in time charges or playing shorthanded.

So, the issues are:
1. How to keep the game stocked, but
2. When the whale shows up, make sure that there is enough action to bemuse the whale for an hour or two and then send him on his way back to the pit. Poker becomes like dinner - a necessary evil, but one where a high quality (as defined by the whale) is of utmost importance.

Why 30-60? Because if they spread 10-20NL nomax, the whale might lose his money to one of the locals, and that just won't do. At 30-60, the whale losing 50BB ($3k) in two hours is enough of a loss for the casino not to freak out, if it means he showed up in the first place and didn't go down the street.

Thinking about the analogy, the easy answer to #1 is simple: pay them. That's what you're all focusing on, either rakeback or jackpots or whatever. But think about #2: how to make the game fun for the whale?

Action. The whale wants action. He doesn't want to chop. He wants to see flops and turns and rivers. There's usually a showdown at a full blackjack table, right?

So, how do you encourage a mindset that the 30-60 game is LAGgy as can be at all times (since you never know when the whale will walk in), but doesn't affect any of the other games? Reducing rake and all that cost savings stuff... do you think the whale cares about the time charge? No, you want the 30-60 players who know they can beat the game even with a strong charge. The player who is certain that he's a better post-flop player than the rest of the 30-60 locals.

My crazy idea (I'm sure the rest of you will have better ones) is have the pit games division pay into a "grinder bonus" pool (e.g. take it from the dealer rack, not the pot) every time a particular event associated with laggy play occurs. Distribute the bonus pool in some manner to the X players who accumulate the most 30-60 time charges that month, with time charges during "slow" periods counting triple. Make the drop amount enough so that the players who keep the game going at all hours get a majority of their time charges back... but only if the game is laggy 24x7 all month!

Now, what's the LAGgy event that will make the game fun for the whale (e.g. winning the case)? I play 2-4 limit, what do I know?? But, how's this for a start:
- (ETA There is a raise pre-flop
- 3 players see the flop
- The flop is not checked around
- There is a showdown, and
- The winning hand is trip 9s or less.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, what's the LAGgy event that will make the game fun for the whale (e.g. winning the case)? I play 2-4 limit, what do I know?? But, how's this for a start:
- (ETA There is a raise pre-flop
- 3 players see the flop
- The flop is not checked around
- There is a showdown, and
- The winning hand is trip 9s or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice try, but high hand jackpots go the way of the Dodo bird once you get to higher limits for a reason - the players don't want them.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[threadkiller]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice try, but high hand jackpots go the way of the Dodo bird once you get to higher limits for a reason - the players don't want them.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Like I said, I play 2-4 B&M (and 2NL online...) what do I know. But was I on the right track about the fact that a laggier action game would be what the whale is looking for to relax for an hour or two?

It's not about the local 30-60 players, it's all about the $1000/hand, 3 hands at a time, blackjack player who likes playing poker an hour a day.

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nice try, but high hand jackpots go the way of the Dodo bird once you get to higher limits for a reason - the players don't want them.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Like I said, I play 2-4 B&M (and 2NL online...) what do I know. But was I on the right track about the fact that a laggier action game would be what the whale is looking for to relax for an hour or two?

It's not about the local 30-60 players, it's all about the $1000/hand, 3 hands at a time, blackjack player who likes playing poker an hour a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Said pit player can roll over to Bellagio and find 2-3 tables of what you described nearly every day. I don't see any other casino getting that going. The Wynn $15-30 is nitty enough compared to Bellagio $15-30(don't even get me started on Venetian's $15-30 this past weekend). Until something drastic happens...and it just might...Venetian is making a very strong push....Bellagio remains king of higher limits in Vegas.

[larry the legend]

If you are unconcerned with initially turning a profit ideas others already expressed that should draw the initial game.... hire friendly staff, dont charge rake under six people, and have a known game start time. Thinking outside the box of poker,fun and entertainment are the keys to keeping the "whales" in your casino. Hire that celebrity who makes people want to come back to play him again, and don't care if they win or lose. Make the room more enjoyable to the company the whales bring. A lot of these men would play poker instead of leaving your casino for a blackjack table elsewhere if there were attractive women interact with. Have a comfortable seat for their girlfriend to watch them play. Give the spouses of these players coupons to your stores while they play. They shop, he plays, everybody is happy. Make sure to have your friendlist cocktail waitresses at the table. Another crazy idea would be to have a comedian hired to interact with the players at the higher limit tables for a few hours a week. No poker rooms in Vegas entertain. Think of ways to keep the high limit tourists entertained and you will keep the table full of fish. Make the poker room a memorable experience.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nice try, but high hand jackpots go the way of the Dodo bird once you get to higher limits for a reason - the players don't want them.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Like I said, I play 2-4 B&M (and 2NL online...) what do I know. But was I on the right track about the fact that a laggier action game would be what the whale is looking for to relax for an hour or two?

It's not about the local 30-60 players, it's all about the $1000/hand, 3 hands at a time, blackjack player who likes playing poker an hour a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Said pit player can roll over to Bellagio and find 2-3 tables of what you described nearly every day. I don't see any other casino getting that going. The Wynn $15-30 is nitty enough compared to Bellagio $15-30(don't even get me started on Venetian's $15-30 this past weekend). Until something drastic happens...and it just might...Venetian is making a very strong push....Bellagio remains king of higher limits in Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I look into my crystal ball I can see the future. Bellagio has 2 years left as king of the hill, then it will go the way of Mirage. The new king of the hill? A casino at the new City Center which opens in 2009. I cannot imagine MGM/Mirage doing anything else.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Mano]

I have never worked in the industry, so I may be not be looking at the problem from the correct perspective, but here is my two cents:

It seems the most important things are to
(1) get the games running, and
(2)once running ensure that the games are good so they keep going.

(1) Incentivise people to start games, especially less than full games. Maybe free time for the first hour for each person starting a new game, or a comp/points system where the players can earn points for starting new games. Be very willing to start a new game, especially if there are players willing to start without a full table. Have pagers/beepers and hotel room notification either by phone or over TV for people to let them know when the game is going. Make sure that when there are enough people to start a game you do - nothing pisses me off more than when I am waiting for a game that has more than enough people on the waiting list and open tables, yet I still have to wait for an hour + for the game to start. Perhaps even an automated answering system or waiting list online where locals can check to see which games are running and view the waiting lists.

(2) Make sure the games are well run. Use your most experienced and competent dealers for your 30/60 games (no break in dealers). Have all rules clearly posted, and floor well trained to make consistent rulings. As for promotions, try and use promotions that encourage action. Rakeback systems probably only attract tighter players. I have seen some promotions where each time you win a pot above a certain size you get a voucher for a freeroll or drawing, and the starting chips each player gets or entries in drawing are determined by how many vouchers they have. This encourages looser play and bigger pots. You may also want the prize for the freeroll or drawing to be entries into high profile tournaments (WPT, WSOP, etc.) and have bonuses for people who win your freerolls that make the final tables of these televised events and wear logoed gear from your casino so you can further promote your room (not sure if this flies with the big tournies terms and conditions, but if it does cross promotions are good). Could also offer things like free stays at your casino, since the winners of these would most likely be playing in your game. Have also seen promo's where if you win with a crap hand (72o for instance, or some random hand of the day) you win something. Also, a 2/3 blind structure should promote looser play than a 1/3 structure.


Don't know if any of these have been tried or not, but I really like the idea of having the tables and waiting lists available online.

[*TT*]

Everyone:

The room in question uses the QueOS electronic board system for poker room management. Does anyone know what the website for this company is, or if they have a SMS text message addon software package? There were many great suggestions in this thread, this may be the best of them all if it has not yet been implicated by the developer.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]