KK vs. DJ Sensei: Live $5/$10

[aggie]

I think 5-betting PF may be worth considering here vs. DJ (and not many others) given the fact that he thinks you're 3bet range in this spot is pretty wide...5-betting may also actually appear weaker to him than you're call of his 4-bet. Stack sizes are very awkward for this though so i'm really not sure of myself here....

postflop i think this is fold or shove...If DJ is bluffing or even if he has QQ he's going to shut down if you call the flop so i think it's better to just get it in. I'm leaning towards shoving over folding.

[The Grumbler]

I think a big part of the problem is that your range is better defined to him than his is to you as you go to the flop. This gives him an advantage. It would be great to take that initiative back, but you'd have to 5-bet to do that. I think that would be terrible because 1) better hands call/push and worse fold 2) Little room left for post-flop play -> commits you to the hand with less knowledge of opp hand 3) doesn't take advantage of position.

I like the preflop call. How do we gain the advantage back against a thinking and tricky opp? I think HERO calls the flop in position.

(I haven't played with either player) I assume a reasonable range of (preflop) bluffs (maybe 88+) is possible by villain? He knows Hero has strong hand by preflop call, say JJ+ or AK. Villain may think a cbet will get hero to fold QQ and maybe KK. While villain would never fold AA, he may get hero to do so with enough pressure.

I think I would take advantage of position and call the flop. Villain must know that you wouldn't raise w/AA or JJ in case he's bluffing. The call reveals only a little more info, QQ is unlikely for you. That means your range to villain looks like KK, AA or JJ. In fact you are at the bottom end of his range for you, so see what he does on the turn.

Maybe this is all just fancy justification because I couldn't get to the flop and fold it. With $900 in, could/would you fold the turn if he pushed?? At that point, you are only beating a total bluff.

[The Grumbler]

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the reason i think folding pre is money is because of the implied odds involved.

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I cannot disagree. Some day I will be at this level and capable of folding KK preflop. Until then, I have to make more $$ from the suckers than I give to the sharks...

[soah]

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Just call his ass down.

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[AceCR9]

so you 3 bet, which you have been doing somewhat often vs CO, and DJ 4 bets...and all of a sudden he has to have a monster?

why is everyone being so nitty?

shove flop.

[psyduck]

People saying fold preflop are crrrrrrrrrrazy. People saying to call pf and fold on the flop are also crazy.

If you call preflop, what kind of flop are you looking for? You can't look at the J82 flop and say "ok, now we're only ahead of QQ since AA/KK/JJ beats us now" because DJ sensei is for sure 4-betting pf with a wider range than just high pockets and AK. If you don't like the J82 flop, what about an Axx flop or a Qxx flop?

the easiest and biggest mistake-inducing way to play this hand is to call him down. Raising on this flop this deep will certainly let him fold QQ. Raising also lets him get away from making a multi-street bluff.

[psyduck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 5-betting PF may be worth considering here vs. DJ (and not many others) given the fact that he thinks you're 3bet range in this spot is pretty wide...5-betting may also actually appear weaker to him than you're call of his 4-bet. Stack sizes are very awkward for this though so i'm really not sure of myself here....

postflop i think this is fold or shove...If DJ is bluffing or even if he has QQ he's going to shut down if you call the flop so i think it's better to just get it in. I'm leaning towards shoving over folding.

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isn't that a little contradictory? DJ is going to shutdown with QQ if he's called... therefore it's better to push? DJ isn't a moron, he can hand-read and realizes that you can't show up with some [censored] like KJ or AJ here to stack off to his QQ...

[cero_z]

Hi Big Jim,

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Post flop, I guess what this really comes down to is whether or not I think he would cbet here without the goods (KK+).

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I agree that this is at the heart of the matter. This is the big thing we can't tell you; if you are both playing well, then you need a pretty big hand to call him pre-flop (TT bare min, or AK), and he absolutely needs a huge hand (KK+, or maybe QQ+, if you don't hold QQ, which you do). So, if he's playing well, then he wouldn't bet again without KK+, and you could lay down QQ or less. But if you think he would bet again without the goods, then he's not playing well, and could bluff off the rest of it if you rope-a-dope. If you have QQ and aren't folding it, I'd do that. But if you have TT that you think is good, I'd shove, because of the presence of an additional overcard and the small chance he could fold a slightly better hand. If you have AA or KK, just call, and call the rest off no matter what, but of course you don't have that much here.

[Triumph36]

Pretty gross, but Sensei is capable of making this 4 bet with air - folding pre-flop is utter madness; fancy fold syndrome.

Call and re-evaluate on turn. Basically, if he shoves, he has to have AA/JJ, so it's a pretty easy muck. But your flop call doesn't rule out these hands to him either - and he will have a hard time shoving with less.

[Surf]

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Pretty gross, but Sensei is capable of making this 4 bet with air - folding pre-flop is utter madness; fancy fold syndrome.

Call and re-evaluate on turn. Basically, if he shoves, he has to have AA/JJ, so it's a pretty easy muck. But your flop call doesn't rule out these hands to him either - and he will have a hard time shoving with less.

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I think calling and folding to a turn shove is pretty bad - that's exactly the action you are inducing, by making your hand look like a marginal made hand that you might be convinced to let go of.

Surf