10-20 live bottom two

bad

[Anzat]

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Easy fold to the all in.... unless villian can have AJ in which case he is definitely NOT 2p2.

Flip at best, drawing dead at worst. Easy fold.

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this is awful advice. commiting suicide is a close 2nd to 3-bet/folding this hand here given stacks.

op, i don't like 3-betting because it seems unlikely he's gonna stack off with worse and he probably isn't semi-bluffing. i wouldn't feel too great about your hand, especially given it's a limped pot. i would call and donk some turns, c/c, c/r, c/f others.

but, just to reitterate if you 3-bet this you HAVE to felt it. it's the basic 'turn your hand into a bluff' theory, and it applies here. if you 3-bet with intentions to fold to a push you essentially 3-bet more than 1/4 of your stack to 'find out where ur at' in which case you still sometimes fold the best hand. hope this helps.

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Lucky,

I would agree with this online in most cases, but I think you are ignoring many cases live where (significantly weaker/more passive) players would almost telegraph their hands based on their subsequent action; and you could play accordingly. For example, I could think of 10/20 players live who would ALWAYS: fold worse hands, raise better made hands), and flat call draws. I don't play 10/20 online, but you should think on a lower level in my experience.

[luckychewy]

why would having a read that villain is weaker or more passive than the average online player justfiy this play? if anything it makes it even worse.

[krammatrix]

so it seems like 3 betting isn't a very good option in this spot. Whats our turn play like if we just call the raise?

um re-evaluate. the texture of the turn changes a lot

[krammatrix]

I was looking for something a little more specific. i.e. what do we do on various turn cards. do we c/f any diamond? any 4/9? It seems like the reason we're not 3-betting the flop is because we're not too excited about getting it in. So what do we do on the turn in the best scenario, when the turn blanks? Are we then trying to get it in?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I would just call the raise and then probably c/r a blank turn. If the turn looks bad and he fires again I'd probably just fold.

[grandgnu]

I think the problem with waiting until the turn is twofold:

1. If Villian is on a flush/straight draw on the flop, we don't charge him to hit it on the turn by just calling his raise.

2. If Villian is on a flush/straight draw, he can get away from it on the turn and we miss out potentially stacking him.

3. If Villian has us crushed with a higher two pair, waiting until the turn isn't going to change that very often and we'll still likely get it all-in at that point as a big dog.

4. If Villian is an idiot overplaying top pair strong kicker, we aren't charging him to hit one of his outs on the turn AND we're allowing him to potentially get away if a scare card hits the turn (diamonds might worry him as well, we really don't know)


So waiting until the turn probably doesn't help us in the least. In addition, we have zero fold equity since Villian has put all his money in. This is a slightly ahead/way behind situation and I think folding to his push after we three-bet the flop is the most prudent decision in many instances (barring any reads that Villian is a complete and utter maniac or idiot)

[Former Spank E]

Had the game's PF action to that point been aggressive enough that he might have limped PF with AA? Or safe enough for him to do the same with 77 or 55?

Because the only clue to the guy’s play you allow us is “I’m guessing villain is 2p2,” it’s hard for me to believe he’d limped with one of the lousier possible hands (A7, A5), or shoved to your reraise with just TP.

His reraise says: “I’ve got TP beat” and--as a 2p2--I don’t see shoving if I can't beat bottom two. I can’t believe a 2p2 has gotten here from MP on any kind of draw, and I don’t see one re-reraising all in on TP alone even if he believes you to be drawing—which is certainly possible, given the PF action (i.e., lack thereof).

I like this question with more info on the action thus far and/or more clues to villain’s play: w/o it, it becomes another 2p2 “let’s figure out the math of the situation” problem in what is really a people game. So what did he turn over?

[krammatrix]

isn't a 3-bet/call ai on the flop pretty much just as good a line as c/f dangerous turn, c/r ai on blank turn?