10-20 live bottom two

TxRedMan · #1 01-01-2007, 12:11 AM

I'm guessing villain is 2p2.

Bellagio 10-20.

I have 2K, villain covers.

For some this is terribly standard, and for me getting it in with 100 BB's is standard, but tell me how my line is.

MP limps, CO limps, I complete SB with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], BB checks option.

Flop

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet $80, BB folds, MP raises $180 more ($260 total) folds back to me and I raise $600 more, he shoves and I call.

-Tex

edit: this looks so standard to me in text, but at the time I was thinking about the size of the three bet and whether or not it would ever be correct to just call his raise on the flop. I thought no, it would never be correct, always fold or three bet, and folding seems out of the question.

Confirmation please.

grandgnu · #2 01-01-2007, 12:26 AM

Is it impossible for Villian to have limped A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and have you in rough shape a good chunk of the time?

Granted, it's hard to put him on 55, 77 or AA in this spot, but what about waiting for a safe turn card to put it all in, considering not only the potential for him to have a better two pair, but also flush/straight draws?

I dunno, I don't play the NL cash games, but I think you have to be extremely careful with bottom two pair most of the time.

Once you've three-bet to $600 and he shoves AND you believe he's a 2+2er (not necessarily meaning he's good, but he at least studies the game and MAY be good), I don't think laying down to his shove is terrible.

BluffTHIS! · #3 01-01-2007, 12:48 AM

1) Your read on his hand if he is a non-lag or over-aggro fish was his push over your reraise

2) Small fav/big dog (worst he has is 8d6d which is flipping)

3) Don't go broke in an unraised pot (I read that somewhere but can't remember who said it now)

grandgnu · #4 01-01-2007, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2) Small fav/big dog (worst he has is 8d6d which is flipping)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good point here. You're either a small favorite/coin-flip, or you're a big dog.

Since he didn't raise pre-flop, I don't see him on A/Q or A/K here making a move with top pair, top kicker.

When you three-bet and he shoves, his shove looks VERY strong, since your three-bet looks VERY strong as well.

Like Bluff said, he could easily have a ton of outs with two cards to come and you're just flipping a coin, or he could have you crushed and drawing to maybe two outs.

I know it's tough to dump a flopped two pair, but I think I find a laydown here unless I believe Villian is a complete idiot.

gol4pro · #5 01-01-2007, 01:17 AM

Easy fold to the all in.... unless villian can have AJ in which case he is definitely NOT 2p2.

Flip at best, drawing dead at worst. Easy fold.

adanthar · #6 01-01-2007, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet $80, BB folds, MP raises $180 more ($260 total) folds back to me and I raise $600 more

[/ QUOTE ]

after you pot the flop in an unraised pot and then 3 bet his raise, what does this 2+2'er put you on?

because after he shoves, and you call, posting "I put him on AK" in BBV is going to result in a laugh riot.

luckychewy · #7 01-01-2007, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Easy fold to the all in.... unless villian can have AJ in which case he is definitely NOT 2p2.

Flip at best, drawing dead at worst. Easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is awful advice. commiting suicide is a close 2nd to 3-bet/folding this hand here given stacks.

op, i don't like 3-betting because it seems unlikely he's gonna stack off with worse and he probably isn't semi-bluffing. i wouldn't feel too great about your hand, especially given it's a limped pot. i would call and donk some turns, c/c, c/r, c/f others.

but, just to reitterate if you 3-bet this you HAVE to felt it. it's the basic 'turn your hand into a bluff' theory, and it applies here. if you 3-bet with intentions to fold to a push you essentially 3-bet more than 1/4 of your stack to 'find out where ur at' in which case you still sometimes fold the best hand. hope this helps.

TxRedMan · #8 01-01-2007, 02:31 AM

my sentiments exactly, regarding the 3-bet.

if i 3-bet i am felting here with 100 BB starting stacks, always.

TxRedMan · #9 01-01-2007, 02:35 AM

this board is very drawy-ish for a limped pot, which is why i'm calling his shove.

i've ruled out him having a big ace, and my only fear is he limped a suited A5 or A7. but given the board, pair + flush draw is possible, so is OESD, and OESFD, and a run of the mill flush draw.

something that's noteworthy: after this hand his play was indicative of a LAG.

i'm really only questioning the size of the three bet and the frequency with which i should call, if ever, and how often/how big to three bet.

BluffTHIS! · #10 01-01-2007, 04:16 AM

Tx,

He also has to be willing to go broke with a worse hand in an unraised pot a lot here for you to like it.

But let's rewind this hand back to villain's first raise of your flop bet. IMO it would have been perfectly acceptable to fold at that point OOP in an unraised pot and just give up the $80. There is just no good reason here to play a big pot in this situation, regardless of what the results actually were.