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#41
12-28-2006, 12:42 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the term atheist shouldn't exist [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What about anti-theism/anti-theist? (Compare with anti-slavery, anti-genocide, anti-indoctrination, etc. etc. etc.) [/ QUOTE ] That would imply an opposition to religion rather than simply not believing in it. It's entirely possible for an atheist not to be hostile to religion. [/ QUOTE ] Yes of course anti-theism is not supposed to be a synonym for atheism. The real point is that the existence of theism (which is a bad thing) means there is a need for anti-theism and atheism (and their names). [/ QUOTE ] I soooo disagree with this. I think the way to combat what's wrong with religion in the world (not necessarily theism), is to refuse to kowtow to it. To not even think it credible enough to merit discussion. And I don't mean like the debates we have on here. I mean by not worrying about offending the sensibilities of the religious when it comes to things like throwing out intelligent design from public schools, etc. [/ QUOTE ] There are many beliefs held by some people that are so patently absurd that these beliefs should not merit discussion. As a consequence of such beliefs, some people are driven to do extremely evil things (including propagating these patently absurd but extreme-evil-causing beliefs). So what do you think is best way to deal with this? 
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#42
12-28-2006, 01:19 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
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Is there a difference between - a) I don't believe god exists. b) I believe god doesn't exist. In any case, would anybody with either of those belief states be classified as an atheist? Seems that way to me. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Atheism has many definitions(weak,strong,etc.) but it seems that atheism has no truck with any supersensible reality. This implies matter is the only reality for if otherwise we enter into non physical reality. If an atheist sere to appreciate a non physical reality then the question would be(among others): What is the nature of this reality? Is it ordered? Does it have movement? Does it affect the physical reality of the senses? Does this reality really contain the notion of "gods" of olden times? Etc., Etc. For good reason has science as seen in our day been appreciated as "scientific materialism". To be a "atheist" one must be a total "materialist" to the very core of his being. Thus comes about that which only considers man to be ponderable matter. So many scientists consider themselves to be "atheists". For what its worth very few of us are atheists for its not only about "believing" but how one relates to the world in his total being. Express love to your lover, give a gift of kindness, read a poem which fires the heart, or listen to a Beethoven piano sonata and one knows his real being is not tied to p[onderability. But of course the conceptual world will allow justification for anything one desires(ponderable?), even atheism [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].
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#43
12-28-2006, 02:21 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Is there a difference between - a) I don't believe god exists. b) I believe god doesn't exist. In any case, would anybody with either of those belief states be classified as an atheist? Seems that way to me. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Atheism has many definitions(weak,strong,etc.) but it seems that atheism has no truck with any supersensible reality. This implies matter is the only reality for if otherwise we enter into non physical reality. If an atheist sere to appreciate a non physical reality then the question would be(among others): What is the nature of this reality? Is it ordered? Does it have movement? Does it affect the physical reality of the senses? Does this reality really contain the notion of "gods" of olden times? Etc., Etc. For good reason has science as seen in our day been appreciated as "scientific materialism". To be a "atheist" one must be a total "materialist" to the very core of his being. Thus comes about that which only considers man to be ponderable matter. So many scientists consider themselves to be "atheists". For what its worth very few of us are atheists for its not only about "believing" but how one relates to the world in his total being. Express love to your lover, give a gift of kindness, read a poem which fires the heart, or listen to a Beethoven piano sonata and one knows his real being is not tied to p[onderability. But of course the conceptual world will allow justification for anything one desires(ponderable?), even atheism [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. [/ QUOTE ] I found myself saying "As opposed to what?" about 5 times while reading this post.
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#45
12-28-2006, 05:52 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
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[ QUOTE ] I found myself saying "As opposed to what?" about 5 times while reading this post [/ QUOTE ] Please clarify. I'd rather the specific difficulty before going on. [/ QUOTE ] Physical reality, materialism, etc.
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#46
12-28-2006, 06:00 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
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Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found myself saying "As opposed to what?" about 5 times while reading this post -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please clarify. I'd rather the specific difficulty before going on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Physical reality, materialism, etc. [/ QUOTE ] Please say it in a full sentence. I tried to be as clear as possible with respect to materialism. If you want to open up the discussion,please say so. One word rejoinders have the effect of leaving you off the hook. Come out and say it.
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#47
12-28-2006, 06:05 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found myself saying "As opposed to what?" about 5 times while reading this post -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please clarify. I'd rather the specific difficulty before going on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Physical reality, materialism, etc. [/ QUOTE ] Please say it in a full sentence. I tried to be as clear as possible with respect to materialism. If you want to open up the discussion,please say so. One word rejoinders have the effect of leaving you off the hook. Come out and say it. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, I wasn't trying to be glib, I thought I was answering the question. You used a lot of phrases like physical reality and materialsm, and said that scientists we forced to stick to these things. And I found myself asking, as opposed to what? You used the phrase supersensible reality, and I have no idea what that means. Could you provide a description of it, and some way I would be able to tell if it was real or you just made it up?
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#48
12-28-2006, 06:54 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to be glib, I thought I was answering the question. You used a lot of phrases like physical reality and materialsm, and said that scientists we forced to stick to these things. And I found myself asking, as opposed to what? You used the phrase supersensible reality, and I have no idea what that means. Could you provide a description of it, and some way I would be able to tell if it was real or you just made it up? [/ QUOTE ] OK, my post ws to clarify the logical consequence of materialistic thinking which is evident during our time. Tghe truism is stated that there is only a materialistic reality as opposed to NOTHING. There is no oposition in this viewpoint and any other viewpoint is not allowed. Therefore you are so many chemicals, mitochondria flaming forth fire, kreb's cycles, pumping hearts, digestive disorders(order) which are relagated to only ponderable matter. Likewise, when you die,since you are only your physical body you enter into annihilation,no more. Some materialistic philosophers escape from this difficulty by positing a continuation of what you are by passing your "stuff" to your descendents. Therefore we have materialistic evolution. In the above, matter is primordial which exists through its own essence. No furthur questions can be asked . Now, it is not lost on us that the human race has a long history of the presentation of certain understandings of the nature of "soul" and "spirit". You don't have to look very far to see philosophers, theologians, poets, music makers, and even scientists referring to the "soul" and "spirit" as realities which do not meet the test of ponderability. I try to not step into the contentious debate on the nature of the "G" word for I see that if one(religious and non religious alike) could come to the nature of the "soul" and "spirit" all other things will follow. I believe that we have discussed this on other threads in which I stated that "thinking " is a supersensible reality. Through thinking one can proceed slowly through the many questions in relation to the human condition. Understand, I'm not trying to "convert" you or anyone else to any world view and what I said is aphoristic and I wish that I could do it better. Stated this before, and will again. The beginnings of understanding can be helped by reading: 1) Truth and Science 2) The Philosophy of Freedom Both can be obtained through the Anthroposophic Press in the USA and Steiner Books in Great Britain and both were written by Rudolph Steiner. Steiner wrote these books in presentation specifically to our age of the intellect.
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#49
12-28-2006, 07:39 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
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Steiner wrote these books in presentation specifically to our age of the intellect. [/ QUOTE ] I really think Steiner is a bit behind the times... LOL
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