A Call

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
so if he has a big hand you don't think he'll cap behind me a decent portion of the time with a big pair b/c he doesn't believe me or is trying to get it HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

He may, but it's also fairly likely that he will not. As was mentioned above, the call/reraise line on the flop is pretty much always either a set or a huge draw. There aren't any huge draws on this flop, you certainly didn't flop two pair here, so that really just leaves one possibility for you (although he's probably putting you on 99 vs. 66). Capping it just doesn't make much sense when you're representing a hand that beats his overpair and BB is usually drawing to 5 outs or less if you don't have him beat.

The other way to look at it is, if he has a hand that he'd even consider capping your flop move with, he will definitely reraise your flop raise with it. Either immediately on the flop, or after a blank turn card. So really, the only time you're going to get more money out of the TAG with this move is when he does have overcards and then spikes top pair on the turn...pretty big parlay. And I still think he's often calling 2 on the flop with AK/AQ anyway, especially if he's holding a BDFD.

[ QUOTE ]
you crack me up, Harv. you tend to mention so many little goofy things that cross my mind or that, in terms of play, i've attempted in the past. i have tried this before and it does often result in the turn checking right through; i guess it's sort of transparent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The vast majority of the time when I try something kooky like this, thinking I have an exact read on my opponent, I'm wrong and I lose bets. But every once in a while I pull it off and feel like a friggin' genius. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
i really don't know. i'm such a proponent of fastplaying the flop with all kinds of hands i thought this might throw them for a loop. generally speaking, i do like just raising the flop so i can cap, and that is what i usually do. i recognized he had a solid hand here and thought there might be a reasonable chance TAG would play back at me to try to get it HU or because he thought i was FOS.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really want to throw them for a loop, do that same flop move some time when you don't have a set. Especially if the third player is absolutely terrible LAGgy, and would frequently lead with an underpair/air.

The thing to remember is that TAGs take notes. If he sees you do that even one time with a hand like TT or AQ, then somewhere down the road it can set you up for another hand exactly like this against him. The drawback being that it will frequently cost you several bets in your "image" hand.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but are most TAGs raising this flop with a donkbet and a call with whiffed overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not and I think doing so is mostly retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thought, but I run bad so I wanted to get another opinion.

-d

[Hobbs.]

booo, I really think a raise now gets you the most money in all scenarios. By just calling you are likely giving up a lot of money when the tag has an overpair because the call flop and then wake up later is an obvious monster line, whereas raising now you're range will appear much large to him. Against an overpair you likely get 3 bets on the flop, 2/3 on the turn and 1 on the river. Against overs you pick up an extra sb on the flop, but there is a good chance only 2ish bets go in on the turn anyway. Bleh, kind of scattered thoughts, but yeah I like raising.

[The Dude]

I'm quite convinced that anything but calling is a sizable mistake. If TAG has an overpair, calling is better, because you now get to 3-bet the flop, and are likely going to get raised by him another time, so you'll be able to raise again. And if TAG has overcards, if you call, he'll call behind you, getting in as much money as if you had rasied and goofass had called, except now you get to raise the turn and TAG might hit a pair on the turn, which would be very good for you.

Hands like this are very important, and everyone who says "it doesn't matter" is just flat out wrong. "Ooh, look at me. I've got a set, so I'm going to ram-and-jam it" is just stupid, oversimplified poker. Pull your head out of your asses and think a little bit, guys.

Anyway, that's just a former pro's .02

[lasa]

I don't like calling at all. With overs the TAG is possibly just calling the flop and just calling/folding/taking free card on turn. With overpair he's raising the flop but if we 3bang it when it comes back to us it's like turning our hand over (only draw there is OESD, two pairs unlikely).

Raise the flop. With overs the TAG might come along anyways as we could just be trying to push him off the pot. With overpair he's probably 3banging, the goof might fold but probably not considering he raised and is a goof. We can then either cap the flop or go for the turn CR.

[Tk79]

[ QUOTE ]

in the end, calling or raising in this spot won't have a significant fact on the hourly rate on the player. flopping a set on a no flush, no highcard board, with 3 players, only a 78 open ended draw, with a bet in front of you is a very infrequent sitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only pick up aces a bit under 1/2 a % of the time. Pretty infrequent huh? Perhaps folding those everytime is no big deal either? The idea of discussing obscure hands is to extract maximum value out of infrequent situations to increase your overall winrate. Make sense?

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm quite convinced that anything but calling is a sizable mistake. If TAG has an overpair, calling is better, because you now get to 3-bet the flop, and are likely going to get raised by him another time , so you'll be able to raise again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think you are. If I'm the 3-bettor with the overpair in this hand, calldown mode is your best case scenario. If I know the opponent well I may not even stay past the turn.

Assuming a competent opponent, when is that play ever not a set?