KK vs. BeL0WaB0Ve - Page 5

Deadnutz · #41 12-21-2006, 02:42 PM

The problem I see with shoving the flop after his cr is the line it creates for your actions. You raised pf, cb flop, then shove after cr. What's your line? Obviously a big pp. So what will a good player call you with? Hands that have you crushed (set, 2-pr) or a big draw like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. So when you shove and he calls you are either way behind or flipping- I don't think he ever calls anything you have crushed. Thus shoving will have a -ev. So i think it's a flop call then push the turn if BA bets into you or bet pot if he checks. This way his drawing hands are now a 2 to 1 dog to your hand and if he calls with them he's making the mistake, not you.

0evg0 · #42 12-21-2006, 06:23 PM

this isnt really that hard.

his range is sets, big draws, and i guess sometimes two pair but that doesnt matter. the point is, after his raise here he's never folding to a push. are you +EV vs his range here? yes, even ignoring pot odds. would calling be +EV for him with this range after you push? yes, but that doesnt matter.

calling and pushing turn though just lost you the opportunity of getting the rest of his chips in against the part of his range that you beat.

basically, it would be like raising preflop with QQ, getting 3bet for an amount that commits him to calling a push (and let's say you know for a fact his range is QQ+/AK) and deciding to call and push any non-A/non-K flop. is that +EV for you? sure. but it's not as +EV as just 4-bet shoving preflop because of the times he does have AK and gets all those chips in as as dog (though he's still getting them in a +EV fashion after he puts in the reraise).

can we end this thread now?

PrayingMantis · #43 12-21-2006, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
basically, it would be like raising preflop with QQ, getting 3bet for an amount that commits him to calling a push (and let's say you know for a fact his range is QQ+/AK) and deciding to call and push any non-A/non-K flop. is that +EV for you? sure. but it's not as +EV as just 4-bet shoving preflop because of the times he does have AK and gets all those chips in as as dog (though he's still getting them in a +EV fashion after he puts in the reraise).

[/ QUOTE ]

This example has actually very little to do with the hand in discussion, but in any case, your reasoning with regard to the best play against this very easy-to-read player (QQ+,AK range...) is not necessarily correct, and it is very possible that folding is the best option, depending on exact stacks, raise sizes and conditions.

0evg0 · #44 12-21-2006, 09:14 PM

jesus christ, it's an example to illustrate a point.

you obv are not interested in understanding why a push is best

PrayingMantis · #45 12-21-2006, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
jesus christ, it's an example to illustrate a point.

you obv are not interested in understanding why a push is best

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Frankly, big parts of your posts simply don't make much sense, and this has nothing to do with the question of pushing or calling in the KK hand. I'm not convinced at all that my call was superior to a push, but your QQ example above is as far as it gets from the hand in question.