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#11
12-20-2006, 05:54 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] im sure you have enough common sense to realize that you dont always get stacked by a flush in this spot, and you shouldnt focus on one hand against a player who can have a huge range. you beat the majority of his holdings here, one showdown means nothing. [/ QUOTE ] The larger idea I was getting at here was that should I really be committing chips with this hand with a decent chip stack and a 50%+ chance of getting in the money. It's like this example given at the end of some poker book i was reading recently (Harrington 2 maybe)-- if you're in a satellitte that awards 3 people with seats in a larger satellite and everyone else gets nothing, and say 3 people have 4500 in chips and 2 have around 500. One of the 4500 chips goes all in and you look down and see pocket aces. The correct play here is to FOLD if you consider your chances of finishing in the top 3 to be better than 80% or whatever favorite you are with your aces. [/ QUOTE ] so you want to fold good hands against bad players with worse hands....because you dont want to get bad beat, essentially. think about that for a while [/ QUOTE ] Nah, that oversimplifies. It's a statistical problem. Look again at the above example with the aces. If you'd play them in that case, you're playing incorrectly. [/ QUOTE ] yes but you are misapplying this concept rather badly [/ QUOTE ] Is there anyway to adjust the concept for the 50-30-20 payout of an sng? Some way to apply it here to tell me whether I should even be playing this hand in this spot with my healthy chip count? 
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#12
12-20-2006, 06:10 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] im sure you have enough common sense to realize that you dont always get stacked by a flush in this spot, and you shouldnt focus on one hand against a player who can have a huge range. you beat the majority of his holdings here, one showdown means nothing. [/ QUOTE ] The larger idea I was getting at here was that should I really be committing chips with this hand with a decent chip stack and a 50%+ chance of getting in the money. It's like this example given at the end of some poker book i was reading recently (Harrington 2 maybe)-- if you're in a satellitte that awards 3 people with seats in a larger satellite and everyone else gets nothing, and say 3 people have 4500 in chips and 2 have around 500. One of the 4500 chips goes all in and you look down and see pocket aces. The correct play here is to FOLD if you consider your chances of finishing in the top 3 to be better than 80% or whatever favorite you are with your aces. [/ QUOTE ] so you want to fold good hands against bad players with worse hands....because you dont want to get bad beat, essentially. think about that for a while [/ QUOTE ] Nah, that oversimplifies. It's a statistical problem. Look again at the above example with the aces. If you'd play them in that case, you're playing incorrectly. [/ QUOTE ] yes but you are misapplying this concept rather badly [/ QUOTE ] i agree. the concepts of satellites dont apply to non-satellite tournaments such as this, and i still would not pass up on playing hands like AKo for an open in the midgame with a good stack against bad players who put in lots of money with bad hands. this applies to basiaclly every poker situation, and as stated, since the principles you mentioned of satellite play do not apply in any way here, you should be playing these hands. as far as the way you played the actual hand, i wouldnt be opening myself up *quite* as much as you did eg. opening for 5x PF but regardless, you need to be willing to put money in with big hands even if its possible that you are beat some of the time. the whole idea is maximising equity and money earned, not pots won, and putting money in in a situation as you describe in this setting is most definitely +EV and passing on spots like this is bad. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I see what you're saying. I still think the concept applies here though, maybe just with some gradation for the payoff scale or something.
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#13
12-20-2006, 08:55 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] im sure you have enough common sense to realize that you dont always get stacked by a flush in this spot, and you shouldnt focus on one hand against a player who can have a huge range. you beat the majority of his holdings here, one showdown means nothing. [/ QUOTE ] The larger idea I was getting at here was that should I really be committing chips with this hand with a decent chip stack and a 50%+ chance of getting in the money. It's like this example given at the end of some poker book i was reading recently (Harrington 2 maybe)-- if you're in a satellitte that awards 3 people with seats in a larger satellite and everyone else gets nothing, and say 3 people have 4500 in chips and 2 have around 500. One of the 4500 chips goes all in and you look down and see pocket aces. The correct play here is to FOLD if you consider your chances of finishing in the top 3 to be better than 80% or whatever favorite you are with your aces. [/ QUOTE ] so you want to fold good hands against bad players with worse hands....because you dont want to get bad beat, essentially. think about that for a while [/ QUOTE ] Nah, that oversimplifies. It's a statistical problem. Look again at the above example with the aces. If you'd play them in that case, you're playing incorrectly. [/ QUOTE ] yes but you are misapplying this concept rather badly [/ QUOTE ] Is there anyway to adjust the concept for the 50-30-20 payout of an sng? Some way to apply it here to tell me whether I should even be playing this hand in this spot with my healthy chip count? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah ICM
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#14
12-20-2006, 10:45 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] im sure you have enough common sense to realize that you dont always get stacked by a flush in this spot, and you shouldnt focus on one hand against a player who can have a huge range. you beat the majority of his holdings here, one showdown means nothing. [/ QUOTE ] The larger idea I was getting at here was that should I really be committing chips with this hand with a decent chip stack and a 50%+ chance of getting in the money. It's like this example given at the end of some poker book i was reading recently (Harrington 2 maybe)-- if you're in a satellitte that awards 3 people with seats in a larger satellite and everyone else gets nothing, and say 3 people have 4500 in chips and 2 have around 500. One of the 4500 chips goes all in and you look down and see pocket aces. The correct play here is to FOLD if you consider your chances of finishing in the top 3 to be better than 80% or whatever favorite you are with your aces. [/ QUOTE ] so you want to fold good hands against bad players with worse hands....because you dont want to get bad beat, essentially. think about that for a while [/ QUOTE ] Nah, that oversimplifies. It's a statistical problem. Look again at the above example with the aces. If you'd play them in that case, you're playing incorrectly. [/ QUOTE ] yes but you are misapplying this concept rather badly [/ QUOTE ] Is there anyway to adjust the concept for the 50-30-20 payout of an sng? Some way to apply it here to tell me whether I should even be playing this hand in this spot with my healthy chip count? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah ICM [/ QUOTE ] "ICM" isn't going to mean much to him if he's asking this question. In any case, yes you should be playing AK in this position, and your play (although you committed a lot preflop and on the flop) was at least acceptable. As far as playing tight on the bubble, harrington in HoH3 recommends very tight play on the bubble and yada yada yada, but AK is a premium hand preflop and so there is no reason to consider folding. If you are worried you are putting too much money into the middle preflop (you were), raise less like the standard 3x, and if even that is too expensive to leave you with a stack you're comfortable with, it sounds like you should be pushing this anyway. You want bad players to do this, and if he's like 90% of the players at this level, he has a jack or something.
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#15
12-20-2006, 10:54 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
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#16
12-20-2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
vowels,
It's so ridiculous try to try to talk yourself out of playing a hand as strong as AK just because you got stacked ONCE by a flush. You're also jabbering about Harrington's satellite advice and all this... just stop it. Basically your entire thought process is 100% results oriented at this point and I doubt this post even gets made all the times the flop only has 2 spades and he still calls off his stack. [ QUOTE ] Bwuh. He called a 5BB preflop raise with 96 of spades? How do I defend against this? [/ QUOTE ] Why on earth would you want to defend against this? Players calling large preflop raises with terrible hands is a fantastic thing. [ QUOTE ] Plus, the larger question, if I'm in 2nd, 6 handed at a loose table, should I just fold AK here? [/ QUOTE ] It would be beyond terrible to fold AK. Do you have any idea how much value you're going to get with AK from people taking flops with 96s? They rarely flop a flush; they often flop a pair, a flush draw, a straight draw... and then they call call call. This same guy with the 96s, he also calls with Ax and stacks off on an A-high flop. Probably also calls with a bunch of kings you dominate. Etc. Etc. [ QUOTE ] AK is an underdog against any pair and only 60-40, 65-35, against any random hand. [/ QUOTE ] Sigh. [ QUOTE ] if you're in a satellitte that awards 3 people with seats in a larger satellite [/ QUOTE ] Then do whatever he says the next time you're in a satellite that awards seats to a larger satellite. But since you are playing a SNG where first gets paid more than third, open folding AK in a non-"there's a short stack on the bubble and the big stack pushed" situation is awful.
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#17
12-20-2006, 02:04 PM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry in advance for the paragraph form of this post. I haven't figured out the hand converter yet. I was just 6 handed in a $3.40 STT on pokerstars. BB and I are about tied for 2nd with $2500 in chips. With blinds at 25/50, I pick up AKo in middle position and raise it up to 5 times the BB, to $250. I get two callers, the button and the BB. Flop comes AJ6, all spades. BB bets $150 and I raise it to $700, trying to make him pay to draw to a flush. Button folds, BB calls, turn comes another ace and I move all in, thinking he either has a lower pocket pair or the last ace with a weaker kicker, though I was worried about AJ. But mostly I felt alright because a lot of people at this level will call with junk or a flush draw here. BB calls and turns over 9-6 of spades. Bwuh. He called a 5BB preflop raise with 96 of spades? How do I defend against this? It's idiotic, but also dangerous because it makes me wonder if I should just start peddling the nuts, which I'd think is a little too passive, even at this level. Plus, the larger question, if I'm in 2nd, 6 handed at a loose table, should I just fold AK here? AK is an underdog against any pair and only 60-40, 65-35, against any random hand. If I'm decent in chips at a loose table, and think my chances of making the money are better than, say, 50%, should I really commit a lot of chips with this hand? I guess I could come in cheaply and try to hit the flop big, but that seems like a chip drain with 5 callers at a loose table. [/ QUOTE ] 
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#18
12-20-2006, 04:28 PM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
It's so ridiculous try to try to talk yourself out of playing a hand as strong as AK just because you got stacked ONCE by a flush. You're also jabbering about Harrington's satellite advice and all this... just stop it. [/ QUOTE ] It's hard to stop it when that's basically my entire question. There's obviously value in folding in sngs. My question is how does one know when the value in my fold outweighs the value of playing a strong hand. If that makes you winch, think of this--let's say you're playing at a 9 player sng where everyone but yourself moves all in preflop on every hand. Do you fold AK here? Do you fold aces here? Sure as hell, I do. There's value to my fold, because it won't be long till the crazy bastards knock each other out and I'm in the money. Playing at a loose table is similar to this, if less extreme. There's value to my fold, because the f00kers are crazy and knocking each other out left and right. It's not that I'm mad about some bad beat 9-6 of spades gave me. I *LOVE* that this guy's playing 9-6 spades to a 5BB raise preflop. It makes me money in the long run. I call these kinds of players Electric Bill, because they're going to be paying mine eventually. My point is that when they're this crazy, which a lot of them are at $3.40, how do I know when the value of my fold is more +EV than raising with a certain hand in a certain spot. Someone else mentioned ICM above, which I'll look into, thanks.
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#19
12-20-2006, 04:33 PM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.pokerhutt.net/avoiding_trouble_with_ak.html [/ QUOTE ] Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#20
12-20-2006, 04:41 PM
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Re: $3.40: Too loose to respect a preflop raise
[ QUOTE ]
If you are worried you are putting too much money into the middle preflop (you were), raise less like the standard 3x, and if even that is too expensive to leave you with a stack you're comfortable with, it sounds like you should be pushing this anyway. [/ QUOTE ] I always heard about a ~5BB raise with AK and maybe 2 or 3BB with QQ, KK, AA, since you want more action. I do remember reading about reducing your raises when you get more shorthanded. Is that why a 3BB raise here is standard? When does it switch from 5BB, when you're reduced from 9 players to about 6?
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