($10) 5 handed. dealt AKs, shove to soon ?

[StregaChess]

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By limping you let someone see the flop cheap with a weaker hand and potentially beat you.

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Potentially? Ever time I have a brain fart they always beat me with a weaker hand.

To the OP, trust the advice these guys are giving you, I've got a whole database of where I've screwed this up being "cute" learn from their knowledge and my mistakes!

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I don't mind a limp in an unopened pot in the SB with an aggressive BB player

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1) I only really want action from a worse ace.


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Let's break it down:

(1) Ax, Kx: you are a 4:1 favorite
(2) AA/KK: are calling a push anyhow, start up another tourney
(3) Underpairs: The better ones are calling regardless. (probably 88+). The worse ones you give a free chance to flop a set, and occasionally 22-77 are going to push on you and you'll lose, but there are a lot more combinations of Ax and Kx than there are pairs.
(4) Undercards. You shouldn't really be afraid to be AI against something like JT here given the stack sizes. Assuming there's 225 in the pot, getting AI against undercards is actually more +cEV. Yes, you'd probably prefer to pick up the blinds, but it's not as bad as going head to head with a middle sized stack. The fact that they're more likely to fold marginal hands would make me more inclined to jam it on them, then.

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2) There is 375 sitting out there to take which is huge
3)The BB is much less likely to make a loose raise with two limpers.

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Two good reasons to not limp in this case. But I wasn't really talking about this case anyhow - I was talking about limping in the SB. Just offering a situation where I think push/fold isn't mandatory; this is not that case.

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edit: i see you mention that with the limper this is a push, but even without the limper you need to push. Limping in the sb hoping that one player left to act raises is really bad imo.

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Well, that's certainly the standard STTF line, but I think a limp is feasible on the button or in the SB here without a limper. The stack sizes are critical to my doing this, though. If I were in a middle chip position with my stack, I'd want to push to avoid a confrontation. If I had less chips relative to the blinds, I'd have to push simply because of the pot size. But this situation (5 players, smallest stack but still fairly even) is perfect for a limp, imo. The keys here are two:

(1) You don't really fear a raise. Against the range of hands villains push here, you're doing well, ESPECIALLY if we remove the hands they'd have called with anyhow. I figure here, villain is calling a push with 88+. Let's say he comes over the top with 88+,A2s+,K7s+,A7o+,KTo+ - you are 2:1 to win against that range, BEFORE we subtract the hands that would have called your push anyhow. You're probably 70-75% to win with those taken out.
(2) You are encouraging a push from weaker hands when you complete in the SB, because calling does not indicate strength. You're getting 3:1, after all. If you limp the button, and no one comes over the top, you have position and a strong hand.

Anyhow, I'm sure pushing is +EV, and I'm not saying it isn't. But I think given the stack sizes and position, a limp could be even more +EV, especially if your opponents are bad.

I completely agree the OP needs to push because of the limper, and I know the standard STTF line is going to be to push here regardless, but I think it helps to mix it up. Whether I wanted to actually limp in a hand would depend on what aggression I've shown, how aggressive the players left behind me to act are, and how good or bad they are.

[djj6835]

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Let's break it down:

(1) Ax, Kx: you are a 4:1 favorite
(2) AA/KK: are calling a push anyhow, start up another tourney
(3) Underpairs: The better ones are calling regardless. (probably 88+). The worse ones you give a free chance to flop a set, and occasionally 22-77 are going to push on you and you'll lose, but there are a lot more combinations of Ax and Kx than there are pairs.
(4) Undercards. You shouldn't really be afraid to be AI against something like JT here given the stack sizes. Assuming there's 225 in the pot, getting AI against undercards is actually more +cEV. Yes, you'd probably prefer to pick up the blinds, but it's not as bad as going head to head with a middle sized stack. The fact that they're more likely to fold marginal hands would make me more inclined to jam it on them, then.


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For playing an all-in pot to be better than just picking up the blinds you need to win over 60% of the time. All I was saying is that if we aren't a big favorite, we would much rather just pick up the blinds than "trap" our opponent. Essentially the error in your thinking is that being all-in against many of these hands is better than just picking up the blinds which isn't true with the exception of the hands you dominate.

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(1) You don't really fear a raise. Against the range of hands villains push here, you're doing well, ESPECIALLY if we remove the hands they'd have called with anyhow. I figure here, villain is calling a push with 88+. Let's say he comes over the top with 88+,A2s+,K7s+,A7o+,KTo+ - you are 2:1 to win against that range, BEFORE we subtract the hands that would have called your push anyhow. You're probably 70-75% to win with those taken out.
(2) You are encouraging a push from weaker hands when you complete in the SB, because calling does not indicate strength. You're getting 3:1, after all. If you limp the button, and no one comes over the top, you have position and a strong hand.


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Of course we don't fear a raise. We fear a check which is exactly what is going to happen the majority of the time. Now you are playing a flop oop against a random hand when the flop is going to miss you 70% of the time.

addition:

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I figure here, villain is calling a push with 88+. Let's say he comes over the top with 88+,A2s+,K7s+,A7o+,KTo+

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This specifically is another error in logic. I think for your typical villain the range of hands with which they will call your push > range of hands with which they push themselves after you limp. If villain has something like A8 in the BB I wouldn't be surprised at all if he calls our push and I also wouldn't be surpised if that same villain checks if we limp.