Stealing with K4s vs LPA

[slik]

Loose passives call with anything, so how can you tell if you're value betting or not, if you hit anything but the K? Add in the fact that these are loose passive aggros, and this becomes a gambling hand. Sure it might be a tiny favorite over 2 random hands -- 37% equity -- but even loose passives have some standards. Change K4s to K7s and things change a little. FYI, 44 also has 37% equity against two random hands, but I think thats a fold against very loose aggros as well. What do you think?

[Unguarded]

Reading these posts, I wonder how you guys manage to get your ASB over 30%. Maybe some of you don't?

[wackjob]

AGainst most villains I steal K4s all day, against two that I think won't fold, I'll toss it. My ATTSB is near 40.

[slik]

Theres a section in HEFAP on when it's correct to limp on the button. You should read it. Personally I fold here, but if they're that bad and never folding, limping is probably better.

[Oink]

@Slik and all of those who suggest folding K4s

How do you know its -EV when you dont play it? It becomes a speculative postulate when you have no empirical results to backup your advice. This - in my humble opinion - makes your advice close to useless.
FWIW I raise Kxs from BTN regardless of the blinds - AND I am making money on it

@Slik

So you suggest folding 44 on the BTN as well because its hot cold equity edge against 2 random hands is only 4%. So what about position and postflop edge? What about implied odds of spiking a set? I sure as hell dont hope your advice is to fold 44 on the BTN, because that is horrible horible advice... HORRIBLE!!!

[slik]

I don't know why I thought you are headed to the flop against two loose aggressive opponents. It is only one, and I think this makes a big difference. I'll concede that it will be profitable to play the hand for a raise heads up with position. But the argument I was advocating was that limping K4s against a loose sb and bb is better than raising preflop if the blinds are that bad. It would take a specific breed of loose preflop, weak tight postflop villains to make raising good against 2 loose blinds. I was looking through pokertracker and I'm not sure there is a way to filter for this.

As far as raising low pocket pairs, the incentive is to steal the blinds uncontestedly some % of the time, and take the pot down with a cont bet some % of the time. If neither of these conditions hold, and my opponent is aggresive as well, this hand becomes too difficult to play even with position.

[slik]

I just checked my stats, over about 100 hands, 22 and 44 on the button have been -EV for me. 33 is +EV, and 55+ are +EV. Perhaps I suck, but at least I cannot play these hands profitably.

[skillzilla]

limping might be an option

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Loose passives call with anything, so how can you tell if you're value betting or not, if you hit anything but the K? Add in the fact that these are loose passive aggros, and this becomes a gambling hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

VS. LP-A

Standard line when we flop less than top pair on drawy board: Bet flop, bet/fold turn, check through river.

Standard line when we flop less than top pair on drawless board: Bet flop, check through turn, call river.

Standard line when we flop top pair: Bet flop, bet turn, bet river.

Standard line when we miss flop: Bet/fold flop, check through turn, fold river UI.

Anything greater than just top pair should be pretty obvious. So, knowing that we're probably not showing down K high UI, I think K4s actually becomes a little easier to play in this scenario than, for example, A4o...which I would assume we're all raising here.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
empirical results

[/ QUOTE ]
2006. 123,000 hands of 6max Limit, mostly 2/4 with a lot of 1/2 and 3/6 and some higher...

Open raised K4s on the button 15 times, won 66% of the time and made .54 BB/Hand.

Folded K4s on the button 11 times when I had a chance to steal.