A good time to stop and go?

[cold_cash]

If he's trying some kind of a free showdown play I'm not a fan of it. If he wants to do that tell him to 3-bet the flop.

I don't hate it as a value play, but normally I would just call the turn and bet the river if he checks or call if he bets. The BB could presumably have a hand like 77, A5, etc..

The big problem with this raise-the-turn line is that it sucks when the BB calls the turn and then bets the river.

Basically what I'm saying is that I want one bet going in on each big street, rather than two on one, none on the other.

I don't want to pay 3 bets to showdown or pay two bets and still have to fold.

[cold_cash]

I just wanted to say that I especially don't like raising the turn if we're going to call the river if he bets into us.

I think as soon as he bets the turn we need to be thinking "two more of my bets are going in this pot" and do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal.

That means if we spend those two bets by raising the turn, we can't call if he bets the river. (Which is why a river bet from him sucks so hard.)

Why do you guys want to spray and then pay off so bad? It's okay to just call sometimes.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]


Why do you guys want to spray and then pay off so bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a HU steal situation. Isn't that what you do in HU steal situations? I regularly find myself spewering bets all over the place. It's good for the constitution. HU TP BET BET BET.

I'm not a fan of the turn raise. Mostly because it allows him to find a fold with the hands we'd prefer he call down with + allows him to punish us with his strong hands. In other words, we create a situation in which he plays more or less correctly most of the time. We do get full value from his draws on this board, but he finds a reason to put one more in with his busted draw or high card a good % of the time, so it's largely a wash. Add in the other factors and it moves to a pretty clear call IMO as played.

If we get more info to the effect that he dramatically overplays hands and can't let go, we can adjust next time.

[Kwaz]

There's only two reasons to raise the turn imo.

1. value. You think he has a made hand and your hand is better and will call with it. In which case you plan on betting the river as well to extract the maximum from his weaker hand.

2. You think he's on a draw and WON'T bet the river if he doesn't make his draw. Raising the turn extracts the maximum.
But if he will follow up on the river, you earn more in sklansky dollars by letting him a full bet with 0% chance of improvement.


A free showdown raise with your hand HU is just silly.


If he's flop aggressive, which most players are these days, I like a flop 3bet, turn bet, check behind line. Especially on such a raggy board.

After calling the flop raise, I'm just calling down.

PS. This isn't a stop n go.

[bennyhana]

[ QUOTE ]
PS. This isn't a stop n go.


[/ QUOTE ]

i thought that was kind of funny. It's more of a reverse stop n go. like a go n stop, or an og n pots. ok i'm tired.

[OziBattler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PS. This isn't a stop n go.


[/ QUOTE ]

i thought that was kind of funny. It's more of a reverse stop n go. like a go n stop, or an og n pots. ok i'm tired.

[/ QUOTE ]

tehehe..apparently I my use of terminology sucks. Can we call this a "go n stop n gogogo" or perhaps a "gostopgogogo"? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I think as soon as he bets the turn we need to be thinking "two more of my bets are going in this pot" and do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the plan of raising if we intend to always put 2 bets in. I would only raise if I wanted to put 3-bets in *usually*. I mean there are conditions where you would raise and check behind but they are pretty rare and you certainly wouldn't do it readless or with skimpy notes.

And yeah this isn't really a SNG.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's trying some kind of a free showdown play I'm not a fan of it. If he wants to do that tell him to 3-bet the flop.

I don't hate it as a value play, but normally I would just call the turn and bet the river if he checks or call if he bets. The BB could presumably have a hand like 77, A5, etc..

The big problem with this raise-the-turn line is that it sucks when the BB calls the turn and then bets the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I didn't like it. I think you often lose another bet when behind and you're going to hate calling the bet on the river even when you're winning.

[Magellan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate it as a value play, but normally I would just call the turn and bet the river if he checks or call if he bets. The BB could presumably have a hand like 77, A5, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

I would only ever use this line to extract value, it doesn't have much merit for anything else. Since it's for value (ie. in this case I think we're still good most of the time on the turn) why wouldn't we be raising the turn?


[ QUOTE ]
The big problem with this raise-the-turn line is that it sucks when the BB calls the turn and then bets the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but if we're raising the turn because we think OHIG then that shouldn't happen very often (assuming we're correct of course).


[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to say that I especially don't like raising the turn if we're going to call the river if he bets into us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see where you're coming from, and if we knew villain was going to lead the river then we shouldn't raise the turn BUT, how often does villain call the turn raise and then lead the river apart from the times he improves on the river (eg. pairs an overcard)? I guess with that in mind sometimes we need to make a disciplined fold on the river, which can be hard, but I still can't see why we wouldn't raise the turn if we think we're ahead.


[ QUOTE ]
Basically what I'm saying is that I want one bet going in on each big street, rather than two on one, none on the other.

I don't want to pay 3 bets to showdown or pay two bets and still have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not disagreeing btw, just wanting to understand where you're coming from [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[4708romain]

[ QUOTE ]
He gets the maximum here from a weaker hand (like A5)

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong.
... and he loses the maximum to a better hand.
if he's TAG as you said, he'll fold A5 here.
i call the turn and call the river, maybe raise the river if it's safe.