Borgata 40-80, KQo

[blundy]

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This is a good hand to post, thanks OP. I usually check-call in this spot, and the discussion here taught me that bet/fold is definitely better. [...] bet/folding is superior -- unless you think he'll bluff-raise here, which I think is pretty rare.

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Thanks Joker. FWIW I think you're an excellent poster on this board. I waited a long time to start because I wanted to be sure I could always ask the right questions and give the right explanations. Thanks for responding.

As for the hand, I've explained myself a few times, and you already seem to understand my reasoning, so I won't go on and on. I'll just say again that I think the rarity of being bluffed combined with the relatively high frequency that I get paid off by KJ, KT, QJ, or QT make this an easy, if thin, value bet.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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In these games, I find that when Hero checks in this spot, it's an offensive check, meant to pick off a bluff, and everyone knows it, and people don't try to bluff them.

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Sometimes I bluff in this spot because everyone knows that I'm trying to bluff them.

[vmacosta]

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If you check, will the villain really bet KJ? Many live players won't, particularly if they see you as tight/passive. In this case, c/f is the clear choice. There are obviously more hands you lose to than beat here.

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We definitely agree that villian won't bet a worse hand, but I think the rarity of a bluff raise and the possibility that I get called by a worse two pair make this a good bet/fold spot. I would much rather lose a bet when I have to fold, than miss a bet when I have the best hand.

I will also say that I think a majority of the hands that beat me on the river should be 3-betting the flop trying to buy a free shot at their gutterball or aces-up.

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I somewhat misread the action and I now appreciate the likelihood we have the best hand here.

I don't know the villain, but this seems like a great time to run a bluff since your hand doesn't really look like it has an ace in it and he can easily rep one with the way he played it.

But I don't think most will pull the trigger unless their tilty or fairly aggro by nature.

[Nate.]

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This is a good hand to post, thanks OP. I usually check-call in this spot, and the discussion here taught me that bet/fold is definitely better. [...] bet/folding is superior -- unless you think he'll bluff-raise here, which I think is pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Joker. FWIW I think you're an excellent poster on this board. I waited a long time to start because I wanted to be sure I could always ask the right questions and give the right explanations. Thanks for responding.

As for the hand, I've explained myself a few times, and you already seem to understand my reasoning, so I won't go on and on. I'll just say again that I think the rarity of being bluffed combined with the relatively high frequency that I get paid off by KJ, KT, QJ, or QT make this an easy, if thin, value bet.

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Blundy --

Keep this level of posting up, please. You're off to a hell of a start.

I like your thinking and I think in your spot bet/folding is the correct line. I will add that many opponents' preflop threebetting ranges will not include those payoff hands, and if they don't check/folding becomes correct, I think.

In that vein, another good lesson to extract from this hand is just how often postflop information (in this case, that so many hands with aces would threebet the flop) trumps preflop information (he threebet with QJ?!)

Again, nice thread.

--Nate

[Moneyball16]

Check/Fold hes got AQ. Maybe AT or JJ. All which beat you. Im not sure hand he could have in which you beat. QJs maybe, but I dont see him 3-betting preflop with this very often.

[Bill King]

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[ QUOTE ]
This is a good hand to post, thanks OP. I usually check-call in this spot, and the discussion here taught me that bet/fold is definitely better. [...] bet/folding is superior -- unless you think he'll bluff-raise here, which I think is pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Joker. FWIW I think you're an excellent poster on this board. I waited a long time to start because I wanted to be sure I could always ask the right questions and give the right explanations. Thanks for responding.

As for the hand, I've explained myself a few times, and you already seem to understand my reasoning, so I won't go on and on. I'll just say again that I think the rarity of being bluffed combined with the relatively high frequency that I get paid off by KJ, KT, QJ, or QT make this an easy, if thin, value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blundy --

Keep this level of posting up, please. You're off to a hell of a start.

I like your thinking and I think in your spot bet/folding is the correct line. I will add that many opponents' preflop threebetting ranges will not include those payoff hands, and if they don't check/folding becomes correct, I think.

In that vein, another good lesson to extract from this hand is just how often postflop information (in this case, that so many hands with aces would threebet the flop) trumps preflop information (he threebet with QJ?!)

Again, nice thread.

--Nate

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such a subtle, yet direct point that I am starting to grasp. this was probably the first thread i've seen where clear, good information was given, and no BS happened.. reminds me of why i started posting here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i agree 100% w/ all of it.

[SA125]

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I would much rather lose a bet when I have to fold, than miss a bet when I have the best hand.

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This is an interesting point. You're saying you'd rather lose a bet looking for value than not take the chance to get the value. Right?

[blundy]

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This is an interesting point. You're saying you'd rather lose a bet looking for value than not take the chance to get the value. Right?

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Exactly.

<disclaimer> I hope this doesn't come off as too pompous, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about this subject lately. I am sure it's nothing new to anyone here, but it never hurts to discuss things we already know.</disclaimer>

It has a lot to do with the fundamental differences between limit and big-bet poker. Playing no-limit or pot-limit our opponents mistakes can be infrequent but still large enough to keep our earn high. But with limit poker they'll never be able to make big (in terms of EV) mistakes, so we have to make sure they make LOTS of mistakes. A lot of times they'll make them all by themselves, but we have to give them as many opportunities as possible. Even if that means risking a FTOP mistake ourselves.

Every time I see my opponents hand and know that I could have eeked out an extra bet somewhere, I feel like I robbed myself. Of course, there are times when a hand plays in such a way that I could never find the extra bet, but I have to keep looking for them.

-Blake

[JeffreyN]

Good post , personaly would of check called before reading these comments and put him on a st8 . My curosity is getting the best of me could you please inform me of the results.

[SA125]

Like joker said, I think it's a leak of mine to overlook the chance of gaining value in these spots and too often go for the ch instead. Reinforcing the fundamentals is the key to success for just about everything. NH