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#11
10-06-2006, 08:16 PM
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Re: Why does uNL advocate such large raises?
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the difference for me is that I do kind of disagree with the general idea that "if his hand is good enough to call $4 more it's good enough to call $6 more". I feel like I'm just letting people play too well against me by making these larger raises. If they've got a good hand they'll call and if they've got nothing they'll fold but I'm trying to nab more of those in between hands, the ones that they're not too sure about. I think the difference between a smallish raise and a closer to pot-size raise is pretty important for a lot of those real middle of the road hands. Clearly if we're at the table for a while, if we want more action on our flop raises no matter what the size, we need to start doing it enough that they're not too sure. I'm more talking about a single, cold situation where we're trying to get someone of around average skill to put more money in the pot with a second best hand. [/ QUOTE ] Remember that there are two reasons for making a larger bet on an earlier street. First, you want to price your opponent out, make it incorrect for him to call. But second, and this matters when you are new to NL cash, you must charge a high enough premium to compensate for the possibility that YOU may make a mistake on a later street. When you're first getting started, that's a signigicant possibility -- you may tend more to pay off those flushes and other draws that hit, etc. So setting the bar high as a beginner is not a bad thing. As you get more comfortable with the math, you'll realize that a turn bet of 1/2 pot in position vs. an obvious flush draw is plenty, because you're only offering 3:1 pot odds and you're NOT GOING TO PAY OFF when he hits. So in that circumstance, your opponent is wrong to chase. That's fine when you're confident in your game and know you can lay down when the flush card hits. But if you ARE going to pay off -- as we do more often as beginners -- then you need to make that turn bet bigger, to compensate you for your possible mistake later in the hand, and make your turn play net +EV. 
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#12
10-06-2006, 08:23 PM
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Re: Why does uNL advocate such large raises?
raising the flop in h1 is bad cause its wa/wb
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#14
10-07-2006, 09:31 AM
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Re: Why does uNL advocate such large raises?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] raising the flop in h1 is bad cause its wa/wb [/ QUOTE ] What if you want to stack A8-AQ? [/ QUOTE ] What makes you think AK should stack A8-AQ on a dry board against a decent player? What makes you think that attempting to do so wouldn't open you up to other risks (i.e., getting your stack in vs. better hands) that would render the whole enterprise -EV in total? Depends on lots of other factors of course, like whether you're SH or FR, but at full ring, me holding AQ and making TPTK is not worth my stack vs. a preflop raiser who has position on me. TPGK isn't worth that much. Might be worth 60BB or so, but not a full stack.
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#15
10-08-2006, 03:54 AM
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Re: Why does uNL advocate such large raises?
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the difference for me is that I do kind of disagree with the general idea that "if his hand is good enough to call $4 more it's good enough to call $6 more". I feel like I'm just letting people play too well against me by making these larger raises. If they've got a good hand they'll call and if they've got nothing they'll fold but I'm trying to nab more of those in between hands, the ones that they're not too sure about. I think the difference between a smallish raise and a closer to pot-size raise is pretty important for a lot of those real middle of the road hands. Clearly if we're at the table for a while, if we want more action on our flop raises no matter what the size, we need to start doing it enough that they're not too sure. I'm more talking about a single, cold situation where we're trying to get someone of around average skill to put more money in the pot with a second best hand. [/ QUOTE ] I think hand ranges are the key to answering your questions. Firstly, you have to figure out your opponent's likely range. If you can decide that his best draw has only five outs then bet to price out the 5-outer. My general rule is to bet enough that I could pay off a PSB on the next round and still have the villain lose money by calling my bet on the current round. So for hand 1, his best draw if he is indeed behind is 5 outs. Thus, his odds for improvement would be 40:5 or 8:1. After he bets and you call, the pot contains $6. Say your raise amount is R. Then the turn pot will be $6 + 2R. Thus, his implied odds are [$6 + ($6 + 2R)]/R. In order to keep his implied odds within 8:1, you've got $12 + 2R = 8R ==> $12 = 6R or R = $2. That means, you make it $4 on the flop and he calls. The turn pot is $10 so by calling $2 he wins $10 + $6 = $16. To make money and encourage calls, raising to about $5 total would be good. Of course the turn PSB is a very arbitrary number and others can be picked, but I think it's a good benchmark. For what it's worth, I wouldn't raise hand 1 very often because I'd want to exploit position globally on this board. Thus I'd be calling with any hand that paired this board and planning to bluff a lot of scare cards, etc. In order to get some free cards for that, I'd smooth call the flop with TPTK a lot as well. Against a flush draw, it's pretty much mandatory to make a pot-sized raise to cut down on implied odds. For a 9-out flush draw, his odds would be 4:1 so $12 + 2R = 4R ==> R = $6. Thus, you'd need to make it $8, a full pot-sized raise. Of course if you think his range is very light on flush draws, then bet more towards draws with less outs. Of course you must realize that defining your hand is going to be more difficult if you bet weak on a wet board because those bets might be wrongfully interpreted as either weakness or great strenght, increasing the chances that you make a mistake in the hand. Hope that helps.
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