Why does uNL advocate such large raises?

[jeffraider]

Hey guys! I'm a SNG donkey so bear with me here.

Basically every hand post I've ever made in the old SSNL at least half of my replies would be "raise more on the flop" or "bet more on the turn", etc. Here's a quick couple of examples of spots where I feel like I should be making smaller raises and get told otherwise by 2+2:

25NL, absent reads, just talking about a standard raise amount here if you decide to raise it. If you would just flatcall in any of these spots standard please feel free to mention that as well.

Hand 1

I raise first in to $1 with AK from the CO, get a caller in the BB. Pot is $2.15. Flop A72. BB leads into me for $2. I feel like $7 is my absolute largest amount I'd like to raise to here. My first instinct is to make it $6.

Hand 2

MP raises to $1, only I call with JJ from the CO (don't worry about the pf in this hand if you would rr here, I'm more interested in the flop action). Flop comes T52. He bets $1.25. I'd like to raise to about $4 here.

I feel like everytime I make a larger raise than my instincts say to make, say to $8 in Hand 1 or $6 in Hand 2, I'm really letting a lot of hands I beat off of the hook. I feel like even weaker TAGs are getting a really nice chance to make a good laydown against me. This ends up with me getting action on my good hands from only coolers, hands that have me beat or complete droolers.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, I'd like to start pwning people who aren't retards as well. One of my leaks (I think) is being unable to lay down hands on earlier streets to smaller raises. Say I've got AK and make TPTK, lead out for $2 into a pot of $2 and get raised to $6. I almost always call here. Then my opponent has me in a really cruddy spot on the turn, as I've got about $17 behind and the pot is already $14. Now he needs to do something that really screams he's got it for a donkey like me to lay down TPTK. If he just shoves the turn I call sometimes and fold sometimes based on my general feeling of the player or table, absent a specific read.

I don't feel like I'm alone in this problem of getting away from hands when I'm getting somewhat priced in to call. That said, if I lead for $2 in the fake AK hand above, and get raised to $8, I'm likely going to be laying it down, a lot more often than I'll be going broke with TPTK.

About turn plays like this, I often want to bet about half the pot or so, which should deny my opponents immediate odds, but getting value for my end. Instead when I try the "pot the turn" approach I frequently am ending the hand there or calling a really strong looking push with what I think is a second best hand a lot of the time but maybe a good call considering the pretty good pot odds I'm getting.

Basically I want more action! I'm still a solid winner at 25NL but I feel like there are so many more spots where I could be stacking guys but I keep making it too easy to get away from for my opponents.

[skegvegaspoker]

Hand 1 is dependent on stacks and the suits on board. However, if you both only have $25, I would think that a $7 raise in Hand 1 will suffice. However, you generally assume you are ahead and if A8-AQ for example are willing to call a $7 raise, I'm sure they will be willing to call $8. At uNL, I think a higher raise in this situation is almost always for value.

2nd hand is difficult to say due to the pre-flop play. However, ignoring this, if you chose to raise here (which again could be a point of debate), I would again raise to $5/$6, assuming you are raising for value. If you a pre-determined to fold to a re-raise, I would err towards the $4.50/$5 bet, but because of how you played the hand, we are unsure whether we are betting for value here.

Generally, I think the rule is that if we are confident of our hand, an opponent if very unlikely to fold a hand to a pot (or just over pot) that he would have called for 3/4 - 7/8 pot. Its all about value.

(Ignore my advice though as I am too a SNG donk learning the game, LOL)

[carnivalhobo]

in H1 raising isnt the correct play

in H2 3betting preflop changes postflop dramatically, but as played no one is folding AT there, but will muck AK type hands. Raising small like to 4 after a guy bets 1.25 into a 2 something pot is close to giving him correct odds to draw to overcards.

The pot/pot/push method of playing SSNL is a sucessful one, not that there arent other ways to win the money, but thats the strategy most people here use.

[Ben K]

Hand 1: I'm generally leary of someone who leads into me in that situation unless I've got reads or a history on the guy. Without reads/history then if we're both $25 stacked then I might call to keep pot size down. If he's short then I'll push. If he's in the middle then I'll probably bet $6 and see what happens.

Hand 2: I'm usually betting $3.75 here.

Essentially play how you're comfortable to play. Making large raises isn't everyone' idea of fun and I like to reraise 3* his bet or 3/4 pot if I'm first in. I feel like I can get away from the hand easier if I'm not so heavily invested. Perhaps you getting stacked with TPTK would be eased a bit if you did the same? It's always your choice though.

If you want more action then I would suggest increasing your reraise range preflop. People have to believe you reraise with less than the nuts if they're going to convince themselves that A5o is worth a call of your raise. They may be willing to stack off at the drop of the hat but if you just reraise pf with big hands then you'll make them feel stupid the odd time that you do. At least if you stack them with JJ, they can say to themselves "See, he didn't have AA that time" and it makes them feel better ready for the next time you bust 'em.

[IceMuncher]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys! I'm a SNG donkey so bear with me here.

Basically every hand post I've ever made in the old SSNL at least half of my replies would be "raise more on the flop" or "bet more on the turn", etc. Here's a quick couple of examples of spots where I feel like I should be making smaller raises and get told otherwise by 2+2:


[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same initial reaction when I switched from SNG's. The thing about SNG's is that conserving chips is as important as making chips. In cash games, this isn't the case. You want to play every +ev situation for the most money you can, this maximizes profits. Basically, donks will call down your better hand with a worse hand, so you want to charge them the most you can to do so. If they suckout, reload and do it again later. Betting more also reduces their implied odds, and everytime they call when they're not getting odds to, it's money in your account.

The other, possibly more important factor is chip stacks. In a SNG, you usually have less than 20 BB in the later stages. In cash games, most people have 100 BB, which changes the nature of the beast. It's easy to get someone all-in by betting half pots in a SNG, so you don't lose value doing so, but in a cash game you need to bet closer to the pot to get the most value.

[BearHustler]

[ QUOTE ]
in H1 raising isnt the correct play

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what is? And why?

[ QUOTE ]

Raising small like to 4 after a guy bets 1.25 into a 2 something pot is close to giving him correct odds to draw to overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Close to 3:1 isn't nearly enough to draw to overcards.

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
You want to play every +ev situation for the most money you can.... donks will call down your better hand with a worse hand, so you want to charge them the most you can to do so. If they suckout, reload.... Betting more also reduces their implied odds....

The other factor is chip stacks.... most people have 100 BB, which changes the nature of the beast.... In a cash game you need to bet closer to the pot to get the most value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically it.

(1) In a cash game, you want to get your stack in the middle if you think you can do it +EV, period. That's why we 3-bet push big draws on the flop, something you would almost never do in a tournament. 53% equity? No problem. In it goes.

(2) Stacks are deeper in cash games, and since the criteria for every player around the table is to make +EV decisions (taking implied odds into account), THEN it becomes important to bet much larger amounts when you think you're ahead, to ruin your opponent's implied odds, and make it incorrect for him/her to call.

The consequence is that cash game math ranges between pot size and effective stacks for the hand, every hand. Rules of thumb for full (100BB) stacks revolve around flop bets of 3/4-full pot, turn 1/2-2/3 pot, river 1/2 pot for value or blocking.

As a single example, with full stacks, if you think you're ahead on the flop but the board is draw-heavy, then you're just not pricing any draw out with a bet of less than 2/3 pot at least (or so goes the wisdom, and I agree with it).

P.S. I wouldn't raise hand 1 (unless the board were draw-heavy, read: two-tone or monotone); you're WA/WB, and you only fold worse hands and get called by better ones. Just call. But if you did raise, a pot-sized raise would be: your $2 call, making the pot $6.15, plus another $6.15 -- so you would raise to $8.15. And remember, even with a pot-sized raise here, you're STILL offering your opponent 2:1 direct pot odds to call $6.15 more, to say nothing of implied.

You'll get used to it.

[matrix]

in a tourney every single chip is precious, you don't want to risk more chips than you need to to get the job done. this is why Harrington advises 1/2 pot size bets for continuation bet bluffs for example. In a ring game a 1/2 pot CB will get you eaten alive by reasonable players.

At a cash table throw that out the window, instead bet as much as you possibly can as long as you are sure it's +EV.

If you pickup AA and you think there is a great chance you'll get called preflop if you open push from UTG then go for it.

Flop a draw that gives you 45% equity and you figure villain is folding to a push 10% of the time? My chips are flying into the middle fast enough to make villains head spin.

Cash is a different beastie to Tourney play and as such we use different bet amounts.

[jeffraider]

I guess the difference for me is that I do kind of disagree with the general idea that "if his hand is good enough to call $4 more it's good enough to call $6 more". I feel like I'm just letting people play too well against me by making these larger raises. If they've got a good hand they'll call and if they've got nothing they'll fold but I'm trying to nab more of those in between hands, the ones that they're not too sure about. I think the difference between a smallish raise and a closer to pot-size raise is pretty important for a lot of those real middle of the road hands.

Clearly if we're at the table for a while, if we want more action on our flop raises no matter what the size, we need to start doing it enough that they're not too sure. I'm more talking about a single, cold situation where we're trying to get someone of around average skill to put more money in the pot with a second best hand.

[Galilee]

I always thought like the OP, but I've recently changed my play from making bets of about 2/3 the pot on all streets, to betting the pot on the flop, about 2/3 still on the turn, and half the pot on the river (if I'm out there with a pair, usually more if I have a better hand).

Cuts implied odds early in the hand; gets value later on. These are the main benefits, I think!