B&M UNITE

[Dids]

The average internet player might suck, the average 2p2er probably has a greater edge in comparative B&M levels than online.

[cpk]

Cliff's notes: Stupid psychoanalysis attempting to demonstrate that bad online TAGs will probably be looser and more passive in a B&M setting. Therefore, most games will not be tougher.

Online games are tougher for two reasons--(a) players are tighter, (b) players are more aggressive. Most online players, however, and fairly mindless in their TAG-ness, so they are exploitable. On the other hand, it's still easier to beat a loose-passive game for more $$$ than it is to beat a bunch of bad TAGs. But this doesn't mean the online games are not profitable--you just have to work harder for the $.

There is a specific reason why games are tighter and more aggressive online. You can fold out of turn online--all you have to do is click the "fold when it's my turn" button, and you're done. If you crave action, all you have to do is open more games, and you'll have plenty to do even if you're a 13/8. It's easy to play tight online.

Further, to be aggressive and/or run a bluff, all you have to do is click the raise button. There's no staring someone down and reaching into your stack and carefully laying out a large number of chips. Just stab the raise button, perhaps having to type in a number, and you're done. Sometimes you don't even have to wait until your turn.

The psychology in a B&M is different:

(1) Boredom sets in, and you want to play more hands. There's no option to open more games--you just have to have discipline. In my opinion, it takes more discipline to stay selective in a B&M setting.

(2) To be aggressive, you have to make a move with actual chips in your possession. Chips for which you have recently traded cold, hard cash. Thus the connection to real, actual money is greater--it's not just a dinky number on a screen (which you can use software to black out if you're playing limit). Trust me, it's way harder to be aggressive when you have to move chips.

(Some people like to throw chips around, though, so the action-cravers might actually become more aggressive. But they'll also be loose, and thus exploitable.)

Thus the trend for a bad player when they makes the move from online to B&M will be that they play more loosely and more passively.

Note that a tough player will not have these psychological barriers. But I'm not talking about tough players. I'm talking about bad online TAGs, which is the predominant online player. Most of them will not be TAGs when they go to the B&M.

[RichC.]

I've played a lot live and online, more online, but damn. Live games are pretty soft IMO. I play the same way too. If I feel like reraising with J5, then I do it, based on my reads. I think playing online has given me an advantage over the avg B&M player. So all you "holier than online" guys can shove it. I play aggro no matter what. Live, online, there is no difference to me. The convienience to playing online is nice, and playing 4 tourneys at once is nice, but I also enjoy the live experience too. I live 10 mins from a casino, yet I still tend to play online. The games tend to be tougher, more challenging, and more fun. The tournament scene live just sucks, period. 15 min level live is just pointless, you dont even get one orbit in. Cash games are just as soft live. Cant tell you how many times I have been reraised with garbage (only I am allowed to pull that stunt). Sure, there are decent players out there, but for the most part, not really. And bluffing? Still read based, live or online, and its easy, just figure out who can actually lay a hand down.

[HeroInBlack]

Why are you "up in arms"? You should be absolutely thrilled that all these horrible players are soon to wind up at your local cardroom donating money to you.

[NWCougar]

the best is the online kids who get their bets and raises ready before its their turn to act. Also the NL kids who keep trying to bet the pot in a limit game. I see these all the time.

[StrayBullet]

[ QUOTE ]
When playing multi tables you are not playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO, what is it then, checkers?

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff's notes: Stupid psychoanalysis attempting to demonstrate that bad online TAGs will probably be looser and more passive in a B&M setting. Therefore, most games will not be tougher.

Online games are tougher for two reasons--(a) players are tighter, (b) players are more aggressive. Most online players, however, and fairly mindless in their TAG-ness, so they are exploitable. On the other hand, it's still easier to beat a loose-passive game for more $$$ than it is to beat a bunch of bad TAGs. But this doesn't mean the online games are not profitable--you just have to work harder for the $.

There is a specific reason why games are tighter and more aggressive online. You can fold out of turn online--all you have to do is click the "fold when it's my turn" button, and you're done. If you crave action, all you have to do is open more games, and you'll have plenty to do even if you're a 13/8. It's easy to play tight online.

Further, to be aggressive and/or run a bluff, all you have to do is click the raise button. There's no staring someone down and reaching into your stack and carefully laying out a large number of chips. Just stab the raise button, perhaps having to type in a number, and you're done. Sometimes you don't even have to wait until your turn.

The psychology in a B&M is different:

(1) Boredom sets in, and you want to play more hands. There's no option to open more games--you just have to have discipline. In my opinion, it takes more discipline to stay selective in a B&M setting.

(2) To be aggressive, you have to make a move with actual chips in your possession. Chips for which you have recently traded cold, hard cash. Thus the connection to real, actual money is greater--it's not just a dinky number on a screen (which you can use software to black out if you're playing limit). Trust me, it's way harder to be aggressive when you have to move chips.

(Some people like to throw chips around, though, so the action-cravers might actually become more aggressive. But they'll also be loose, and thus exploitable.)

Thus the trend for a bad player when they makes the move from online to B&M will be that they play more loosely and more passively.

Note that a tough player will not have these psychological barriers. But I'm not talking about tough players. I'm talking about bad online TAGs, which is the predominant online player. Most of them will not be TAGs when they go to the B&M.

Edited by cpk (10/03/06 12:48 PM)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is thoughtful and well written. I believe the Internet Pro is in for a bit of a suprise.

[uncleshady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cliff's notes: Stupid psychoanalysis attempting to demonstrate that bad online TAGs will probably be looser and more passive in a B&M setting. Therefore, most games will not be tougher.

Online games are tougher for two reasons--(a) players are tighter, (b) players are more aggressive. Most online players, however, and fairly mindless in their TAG-ness, so they are exploitable. On the other hand, it's still easier to beat a loose-passive game for more $$$ than it is to beat a bunch of bad TAGs. But this doesn't mean the online games are not profitable--you just have to work harder for the $.

There is a specific reason why games are tighter and more aggressive online. You can fold out of turn online--all you have to do is click the "fold when it's my turn" button, and you're done. If you crave action, all you have to do is open more games, and you'll have plenty to do even if you're a 13/8. It's easy to play tight online.

Further, to be aggressive and/or run a bluff, all you have to do is click the raise button. There's no staring someone down and reaching into your stack and carefully laying out a large number of chips. Just stab the raise button, perhaps having to type in a number, and you're done. Sometimes you don't even have to wait until your turn.

The psychology in a B&M is different:

(1) Boredom sets in, and you want to play more hands. There's no option to open more games--you just have to have discipline. In my opinion, it takes more discipline to stay selective in a B&M setting.

(2) To be aggressive, you have to make a move with actual chips in your possession. Chips for which you have recently traded cold, hard cash. Thus the connection to real, actual money is greater--it's not just a dinky number on a screen (which you can use software to black out if you're playing limit). Trust me, it's way harder to be aggressive when you have to move chips.

(Some people like to throw chips around, though, so the action-cravers might actually become more aggressive. But they'll also be loose, and thus exploitable.)

Thus the trend for a bad player when they makes the move from online to B&M will be that they play more loosely and more passively.

Note that a tough player will not have these psychological barriers. But I'm not talking about tough players. I'm talking about bad online TAGs, which is the predominant online player. Most of them will not be TAGs when they go to the B&M.

Edited by cpk (10/03/06 12:48 PM)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is thoughtful and well written. I believe the Internet Pro is in for a bit of a suprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont. But then again, I've been playing both from the beginning.

[PantherZ]

I guess we'll find out soon.

All I know is, the last time I played 15/30 B&M, there were an average of six or seven players to the flop and three or four calling on the river.

The last time I played 3/6 online, the pots were either blind steals, heads up or 3-way, and I actually had to outplay my opponents to win money in the game.

[thirddan]

i think that people saying the internet multitablers will have a hard time adjusting to bm are wrong here...they are underestimating the intelligence/determination of the online tags that have just lost their jobs and are overestimating the differences between playing low/mid limit online games and low/mid limit live games...for the most part the twenty something online players are not idiots that won't be able to adjust, but will play bm and realize that some changes have to be made and they will make those changes...a solid theoretical foundation of poker is more than enough to destroy most live mid limit games which is where most of the online tags will end up...

i don't know if this will actually affect quality of bm games, only time will tell...but those saying that the online tags will become bm fish are wrong imo...