Pope goes Islam

[morphball]

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So you are basically implying that it is impossible to have any type of honest criticism or debate of Islam or with Muslims, because they are primitive, violent, barbaric people and will respond with anger, and it will have no positive benefit because it is impossible to reason with them?

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That about sums up the situation perfectly for a large percentage of the muslim world. It's unfortunate, but it's also accurate.

Christianity put Europe in the Dark Ages, Islam is doing the same. As to how far this will extend, only time will tell.

[nicky g]

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Finally, the legal age of marriage in Turkey is 18.

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With "parental consent" it is 9 years old.....

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That's not what the state department says:

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The legal age of marriage in the country is 18 for both boys and girls. A judge can authorize a marriage at age 17 under "extraordinary circumstances"; the law requires judges to consult with parents or guardians before making such a decision. However, children as young as 12 were at times married in unofficial religious ceremonies. Families sometimes engaged in "cradle arrangements," agreeing that their newborn children would marry at a later date, well before reaching the legal age.

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Turkey Human Rights 2005



Young marriages (although not as young as you claim) may persist in some parts but they are illegal.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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Secondly, the sources differ widely over Aisha's age at the time of marriage, some suggesting as young as 9 and some as old as 19.

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[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] So the Sahih Bukhari is lying when it says:
"[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."

Modern muslim apologists are deeply embarrassed by 54 yr old Mohammed having sex with 9 year old little girl. To concede this is to admit Mohammed was a deranged pedophile which would shake the entire moral foundation of islam.... BTW, it is no accident why many muslim nations choose 9 as the age that a little girl can marry. This is based upon the Koran (ie Mohammed's marriage to a little girl).

Just imagine John Mark Carr being named the greatest and holiest of God's prohets. This is analogous to what happen to Mohammed.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/17/ra...est/index.html

[Meech]

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So you are basically implying that it is impossible to have any type of honest criticism or debate of Islam or with Muslims, because they are primitive, violent, barbaric people and will respond with anger, and it will have no positive benefit because it is impossible to reason with them?

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That about sums up the situation perfectly for a large percentage of the muslim world. It's unfortunate, but it's also accurate.

Christianity put Europe in the Dark Ages, Islam is doing the same. As to how far this will extend, only time will tell.

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Agreed.

If they would only stand and protest as loud about the people supposedly perverting Islam, I might be able to at least stomach the "religion of peace".

[nicky g]

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So the Sahih Bukhari is lying when it says:
"[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."

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If you knew anything substantial about Islam you would know that there are contradictory hadith on virtually all subjects, even within individual collections such as Bukhari. A devout Muslim and even fundamentalist Islamist such as Maududi can dispute this hadith without any suggestion that anyone is lying or worry that he is profaning "venerated" sources; debating hadiths is common amongst Muslims.

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BTW, it is no accident why many muslim nations choose 9 as the age that a little girl can marry.

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How many Muslim nations, exactly? At least one of your claims was wrong.

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This is based upon the Koran (ie Mohammed's marriage to a little girl).

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THere is nothing in the Qur'an about Muhammad's mariage to Aisha. THe fact that you don't even know the difference between the Qur'an and the Sunna illustrates the absurdity of taking antyhing you have to say about Islam seriously.

[awayfromjay]

The Pope was mostly taken out of context. The news reports fail to include most of his entire speech. It appears to me he was more concerned with the fact that a person should not be forced into a religion through violence.

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?entry=4585

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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That's not what the state department says:


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The site where I got this info is no longer up. Perhaps Turkey has change their marriage laws. Perhaps to help their bid to enter the EU.

Much is Islamic Law is Based Upon the Actions of Mohammed
Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:
“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission, for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha, when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”
Source: Ibn Hazam (acknowledged by all Muslims as one of the greatest scholars on Islamic Law) in his al-Muhalla (“The Sweetened”). Vol. 6, part 9, pp. 458-460.

Aisha herself testified to these facts:
“The messenger of God betrothed me when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.”
Source: Sahih Muslim (by Imam al-Mawawy), vol. 3, p. 577.

[Broken Glass Can]

Nice to see muslims, like these in India, are showing us how Islam is a religion of peace:



(That burning thing on the ground is an effigy of the Pope BTW)

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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THere is nothing in the Qur'an about Muhammad's mariage to Aisha. THe fact that you don't even know the difference between the Qur'an and the Sunna illustrates the absurdity of taking antyhing you have to say about Islam seriously.

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True, I don't know much about the Sunna but I'll let this link do my talking for me:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Respo.../aishahage.htm
Notable quote:
"At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.
'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old". Additionally, a hadeeth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abu Dawood. Needless to say, this evidence isñIslamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.

This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about 'Aishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!)."



Pakistan (9 yr old bride seeks divorce)
http://www.westernresistance.com/blo...es/002173.html

I think many modern Islamic states are embarassed by marriages to little girls and have passed nominal laws against child marriages. Depending on the country, these laws are rarely enforced. I had one site with a man married a 2 year old little girl in Afghanistan but I can't find it now. I will start bookmarking sites so I don't have to repeat these exercise every 3 months... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

In Islam, 9 Year Old Girls are Adults
http://www.ezsoftech.com/omm/polygamy.asp
"And even if we accept, just for the sake of argument, that the Creator creates equal number of males and females, does it prove that there will be no need of polygamy? Well, let us look at this matter in a reasoned way. The girls become capable of re-production, and get the natural sexual feeling earlier than boys. Islam has fixed the age of 9 years for a girl to be considered as an adult, while the age limit for the boys is 14 or 15. It is because in temperate climate girls are able to conceive at the age of 9 or 10; while in the same climate an average boy becomes able to establish sexual intercourse at the age of about 14 or 15."



When you do a google search and get 2 million hits, you can waste a lot of time searching....

[kurto]

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The Pope Was Being Nice. He could have mentioned that Mohammed was a pedophile who:
1. Fell in love with a 6 year old girl and got engaged to her.
2. Married the girl at age 9 and consumated the relationship.

I do concede that despite all of Mohammed's moral failings he at least had enough 'morals' not to engage in premarital sex with his 6 year old fiance. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005137.php

And guess what the legal age of marriage is in many muslim countries like Iran, Turkey, and others are?
If you said 9 years old, you be correct.

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How this relates to this thread?

And do suppose that this was completely abnormal at the time? It wasn't until the Renaissance that the church addressed marriage age and they said that women should be married until they were 12.

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And guess what the legal age of marriage is in many muslim countries like Iran, Turkey, and others are?
If you said 9 years old, you be correct.

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Let's see what Wikipedia says-
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Iran: 15 for males, 13 for females.


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Turkey: 18, 17 with parental consent, 16 under special circumstances with court approval.


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There was only one country listed as young as 9:
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Yemen: 9 ("In 1999, the minimum marriage age of fifteen for women, rarely enforced, was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by conservatives to be at the age of nine, was set as a requirement for consummation of marriage."[2] see also Human rights in Yemen)

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How does this compare to the US?
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United States: Usually 18. Most states, however, allow marriage at a younger age with parental and/or judicial consent. Some states allow marriage at a still younger age if the female is pregnant. (Nationally, few marry under the age of twenty.)

California: no statutory minimum, those under 18 must receive approval of a superior court judge and parental consent.
Georgia: 18 generally, 15 with parental consent, 16 without parental consent if pregnant
New Hampshire: 18 generally; 14 for males and 13 for females, in cases of "special cause" with parental consent and court permission.
New York: 18 generally, 16 with parental consent, 14 for males and 13 for females with court permission.
Utah: 18 generally for first marriage, 16 with parental consent, 14 with court approval or previous marriage.


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Though this really has nothing to do with the thread. If I had to guess I'd say it someone wanted to just attack another religion. If one wanted to point out ugly things about the Christian religion, the Bible is filled with juicy atrocities.