limped 77 against preflop raiser

[Ebonwoulfe]

It seems that I am wrong with how I play 77, would y'all look at your PT database at your results with 77 UTG and UTG+1 and post the results? I'd like to see that you're making money playing it this way before I consider it further.

[alul]

This flop is no-call. You can either fold or raise. Calling means you want to draw. And you don't have the odds to draw to you 2-outer (I don't consider backdoor draws since they are week). I'd fold here because you have no position and cannot raise for free card.

[Harv72b]

[semi-grunch]

Yes, 77 is not a good UTG limp in most games. That's not to say that I never do it (I do), just that it's usually a losing proposition because you will often be isolated & then have to play exactly the kind of guessing game that you're in here.

As far as the rest of the hand, given your limp/call preflop, I see a few possibilities:

1) Check/fold the flop. As others have pointed out, you missed your set, two overcards came on the flop, and there are a lot of draws out there which can beat you if you're not behind already. It is very unlikely that you are actually favored at this point in the hand, even if by some chance you're holding the best cards right then.

B) Bet the flop. Your sample size on these opponents isn't nearly large enough to read anything into their aggression factors, but because of the points above & the relatively small pot size, you can probably bet/fold safely enough here, especially if MP3 raises & Button calls 2. Or bet/call with the intention of folding a non-7 turn, which is of course not a +EV play but does avoid the table image issues associated with bet/folding a flop like this.

3) Check/call the flop with the intention of donking a "safe" turn card. This line doesn't sound to good because first of all, very few turn cards are "safe" (you did get one here), being called in either or both spots tells you nothing about whether or not you're ahead in the hand, and a scare card will often hit on the river anyway.

D) Check/raise the flop. I hate this line because, once again, having your check/raise called does not tell you whether or not you're ahead in the hand, there are a ton of scare cards which can come on the turn, and neither of these guys look like the type that's going to fold a better hand if you bet one of those turn scare cards (i.e., a diamond). This really just seems like a good way to lose as much money as possible with this hand.

So, it seems that check/fold is clearly the best flop option. Generally speaking, this is what I'll do with any pocket pair when multiple overcards come on the flop, especially if there's a bet and a call ahead of me and/or there are several players left to act behind me. Every so often you are indeed folding the best hand, and of those times you would've held had you stayed in a few times, too. But in the most general terms, it's just not worth the effort to stay in these pots past the flop.

Oh, as far as your thinking that the turn might get checked through....even if MP3 is holding AK it's fairly likely that he's going to bet a non-scare card on the turn, as there are so many potential draws that you & Button could be on. Which once again makes a check/call line on the flop look bad.

[/semi-grunch]

[BenA]

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edit: oh [censored] didn't notice that you limped under the gun in a full ring game w/ 77. Stop doing that immediately, and your bankroll will thank you.


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I disagree almost completely, unless you are in a taggy game where its usually raised pre-flop and only 3-5 players see a flop. In that case, its a fold. However, in those game, I'll often open-raise 77 from MP and later, since the chance of getting it heads up or stealing the blinds goes way up. But in a nice loose game, implied odds go way up for your set value.

I think either b/f flop or c/f. I think c/c is a terrible option. The advantage of b/f is the opportunity to steal if they missed, and turn fold equity if only one player calls. That board is a bit drawy, so this puts you in a tough position if you get a caller. With these two players and only small sample size stat reads, its hard to say. And I think WD already pointed out that you are reading the AF incorrectly.

[Harv72b]

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unless you are in a taggy game where its usually raised pre-flop and only 3-5 players see a flop

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This statement describes most every online small stakes table I've played on.

[BenA]

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unless you are in a taggy game where its usually raised pre-flop and only 3-5 players see a flop

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This statement describes most every online small stakes table I've played on.

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Lol. You have a good point. But I do often find tables where its raised a lot preflop with 6-9 players typically. In that case, I still think an argument for a UTG limp could be made, especially if you get paid off big time for a set by a bunch of morons.

[TheBigHurt]

Check/folding sounds like good advice to me.

If you did donk this flop, I don't think you'd get raised by a worse hand (except for a flush draw, or OESD). Players with medium-low aggression factors like these guys usually seem much more timid about raising than betting when checked to, so I think you could just fold to a raise. Maybe if you wanted to mix up your play, you could try donking a flop like this where the board is rainbow and there are less straight chances out there.