limped 77 against preflop raiser

SlamminP · #1 09-15-2006, 10:41 AM

MP3 is 33/11/1.1 after 60 hands
BUTTON is 30/11/0.27 after 27 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Button calls, Hero folds.

I called the flop in the hope that both opponents have overcards and the if the turn gets checked through I'm likely ahead. Does this sound retarded knowing the barrage of overcards I'll have to dodge on the turn and river? Should I donk the flop instead if I think there's a reasonable chance I'm ahead? Assuming I donk the flop, can I easily lay it down right there to a raise?

Sorry for the somewhat vague questions as I know this is highly read dependent.

Ebonwoulfe · #2 09-15-2006, 11:06 AM

You're throwing this bet away by calling, and you know it.

There's a player with an AF of 1.1 betting, and a caller already in the pot. That's two people who are either already beating you or have strong draws. So by trying to get it checked down, you have to be both ahead right now AND you probably have to dodge all face cards and all diamonds on two streets.

SlamminP · #3 09-15-2006, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're throwing this bet away by calling, and you know it.

There's a player with an AF of 1.1 betting, and a caller already in the pot. That's two people who are either already beating you or have strong draws. So by trying to get it checked down, you have to be both ahead right now AND you probably have to dodge all face cards and all diamonds on two streets.

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So what's your advice?

Ebonwoulfe · #4 09-15-2006, 11:22 AM

Oh... fold the flop. And when Mr. 1.1 AF bets or raises, give him more respect than you would someone with an AF of 3. And don't overcall with weak made hands - feel free to do it with decent draws, however.

edit: oh [censored] didn't notice that you limped under the gun in a full ring game w/ 77. Stop doing that immediately, and your bankroll will thank you.

TheHip41 · #5 09-15-2006, 11:59 AM

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You're throwing this bet away by calling, and you know it.

There's a player with an AF of 1.1 betting, and a caller already in the pot. That's two people who are either already beating you or have strong draws. So by trying to get it checked down, you have to be both ahead right now AND you probably have to dodge all face cards and all diamonds on two streets.

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So what's your advice?

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fold the flop.

why do ppl call here? It's over.

SlamminP · #6 09-15-2006, 12:35 PM

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edit: oh [censored] didn't notice that you limped under the gun in a full ring game w/ 77. Stop doing that immediately, and your bankroll will thank you.

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Once again what's your advice?? raise or fold? why?

There's been discussion about this on 2+2 before and I've come to the conclusion taht limping medium pairs UTG in loose games isn't as bad as many think. If you raise, you're getting reraised only by hands that beat you (some exceptions) and eliminating hands which you have an edge over. If you limp, you will often get several callers without a raise and when a raise does occur, you sometimes get the required 5 players in the pot to make the play +EV.

I fold pairs up to sixes here though, are you implying that this is also correct for 77?

W. Deranged · #7 09-15-2006, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh... fold the flop. And when Mr. 1.1 AF bets or raises, give him more respect than you would someone with an AF of 3. And don't overcall with weak made hands - feel free to do it with decent draws, however.

edit: oh [censored] didn't notice that you limped under the gun in a full ring game w/ 77. Stop doing that immediately, and your bankroll will thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things here need correction:

1. You are misinterpreting aggression factors. AF means very little without some other evidence, particularly VPIP. A guy with a 40 VPIP and a 1.1 agg. factor could be quite aggressive, often pumping crap and betting always when checked too. He could combine that behavior with chronic chasing in multiway pots, and have an agg. factor that is very low. (The demoninator in agg. factor is how often you call; players who are fishy and call a lot will often have low agg. factors despite doing a lot of weird, aggro stuff at times). A guy with a 3 agg. factor, unless he's really nuts, likely gets that number from folding a lot and rarely calling. You'll often see weak-tighties who play to 12/7/3, and have seemingly high agg. factors because they play "fit-or-fold" poker and basically never call anything. Those guys might actually get out of line less than the 1.1 guy.

2. Limping 77 UTG in a full-ring game is not only not bad, I would say that it might be the standard play.

MN_Mime · #8 09-15-2006, 12:49 PM

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Limping 77 UTG in a full-ring game is not only not bad, I would say that it might be the standard play.

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James. · #9 09-15-2006, 01:03 PM

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Limping 77 UTG in a full-ring game is not only not bad, I would say that it might be the standard play.

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i actually raise with it about 1/4 the time. at one point i(game conditions allowing)raised with it like 90%. just learn how to play it postflop. my point is, this limp is more than okay.

MN_Mime · #10 09-15-2006, 01:17 PM

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Limping 77 UTG in a full-ring game is not only not bad, I would say that it might be the standard play.

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i actually raise with it about 1/4 the time. at one point i(game conditions allowing)raised with it like 90%. just learn how to play it postflop. my point is, this limp is more than okay.

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People asking these questions probably don't play as well as you do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I used to auto-raise 77 UTG, ran into a lot of problems (pretty sure I've started 2 threads on the subject), and don't feel like I'm losing much playing it soft. Short-handed, against tight tables, or when your raises are respected all make for good opportunities to raise it up and experience and style will dictate those moves. On the other hand, limping small-middle PP also disguises your other UTG limps against thinking opponents and may buy you free cards on ragged flops.

[EDIT: 1/4 doesn't sound out of line. I'm probably around half that.]