Just Keep Folding

[private joker]

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Bottom line is if you are folding to a raise on the end... why bet? Don't allow yourself to be played out of the pot.

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I disagree with this. Although I think he should have check-called down after the flop raise, I think if he leads the turn and just gets called, he needs to bet the river for value. Villain will check behind a LOT of hands he'll call a bet with, but will not bet himself. But when he raises, I think it's clear we're beat. Very rarely is this river raise a bluff after the strength we've shown -- he does not expect us to lay this down, really. Not on that river card. His raise is a value raise. But bet/fold is better than check/call IF we play the turn like we did.

[TheStandman]

This hand went completely wrong. Before the flop came you had the best hand. He raised this flop, you check-raise the turn and there he suddenly calls. He might have a jack with a bad kicker. And you even bets the river and he raises... whow, this is an very easy fold against a normal player, you can never win this hand unless he is bluffing.

Why would you bet-fold the river if a check-call gives you a showdown for the same amount of money, what did you you think the fold-percentage is here???? Or was it a value bet against a lower pair? I think the fold percentage is almost zero here.

If you are going to play a hand this way, you could better fold the flop with a pair on the board because that would be a WAY better choice and less costy!

My advice for you, fold this flop or if you don't believe he has a jack and you put him on another pair, call him down.

[Donkster]

You cannot assume he does not have AK. There are a decent number of players who never raise with this hand because they feel like they always lose with it. Most of us here understand the fallacy of that approach, but nonetheless I see people play AK this way often enough that you can't eliminate it from your thought process against an unknown player. In fact, I've seen players several times limp or just call with AK pre-flop and then raise or check raise the flop after missing it entirely.

That said, I do think it rather unlikely he has AK here, but you cannot rule it out.

[jba]

"Why would you bet-fold the river if a check-call gives you a showdown for the same amount of money"

it's not the same amount of money. it's true that it's always one bet but not with the same frequencies.

[private joker]

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That said, I do think it rather unlikely he has AK here, but you cannot rule it out.

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I'm not ruling out T6o either. But it's not in the range of hands I put him on, so I calculate my plan based on his likely hands. Therefore I think it's WA/WB. He *usually* has 2-3 outs or we *usually* have 2.

[TheStandman]

I don't understand why you are talking about outs. The correct sum of outs is by definition the total number of unknowncards left... How can 2 people heads up have a total of 5 outs?

[private joker]

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I don't understand why you are talking about outs. The correct sum of outs is by definition the total number of unknowncards left... How can 2 people heads up have a total of 5 outs?

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What? Are you serious? It's an EITHER/OR. If you're ahead, he has 2-3 outs, generally. If you're behind, you have 2 outs, generally. Both can't exist at the same time.

[thebeebster]

what an odd thread. the most relevant info here is the lack of read. while it would suck to have it checked through on the river and not get value from an underpair it will help us with future hands with the villain. check call down after the flop raise. if YHIG then you'll know the flop raise isn't usually a trips and your turn c/r and river donks will be value bets.

what's funny is that a lot of times i end up seeing KK or AA here and i get thoroughly baffled.

[honker]

It seems to me you wanted to see where you were at by raising the turn, which is a poor choice when you can call the river for the same money. You saved money by folding, but you could have justified a showdown.