A question of ethics (slightly OT)

[Manimal 42]

[ QUOTE ]
... Civil disobedience is also an ethical option.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a total bean head, I agree with the civil disobedience option. I can't imagine many tenured profs being bothered to enforce such a ridiculous rule but some tight arsed TAs just might.

What's the penalty for this crime? If it's a fine, I would just go on bringing coffee and consider, if caught, I was paying slightly more then Starbuck's prices if the penalty is not too draconian. I can envision that anyone so uptight to ask what is in the cup might ask to see it and we all hate to have our bluffs called if there's no +EV so, I wouldn't lie.

I dealt with this kind of thing while working on a ship. We had crew boat drill at 9:30 am for an hour and my station was in some back stairway where I'd be there to help passnegers in case of crisis. For the drill, we just stood there in our lifejackets. I'd bootleg the mug when officers came by (Vry rare occurance) but after two months, my bandleader who shared the station with me asked about the mug. He got kinda pissed when I told him it was coffee but I'd have hurt the relationship more by lying.

Lying about the Kings should be second nature. Either the other player can read you or not. It's what we do. ;~)

[Mike]

The way I see it, poker is a game of paying. I pay to see the flop, turn, and river. The river payment gives me the right to see the bettor's cards and they paid for the right to see my cards. Why should anyone get special priviliges when the rules are defined so well?

[bcubed72]

I think, loking back, that the response to opponent's question ("Do you have a king?") was only the icing on the cake; that he had 90% made up his mind proir to this. When I flopped top set on a non-threatening board(K97 rainbow), I check/called a modest bet. When the 4th king came on the turn, I knew that if I check/called the turn, too, then led out on the river, it would look like an obvious slowplay. So I figured I needed to bet out here, but I knew my opponents were probably fairly weak, so I thought a 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet would look about right. I got called by 2 players. On the river, (K97K7), I made another 1/2 pot bet, and when one opponent (unexpectedly) raised me, I decided to see if I could bust him. When I went all-in, he knew one K was much more likely than two, so he must have been weighing the hand history to see if it made sense with a K in the hole, which I think is what compelled his call. If I had, say, AK, check/calling TPTK on the flop and betting out trips on the turn seems unlikely; most people would lead out the flop and slowplay the turn. I really think the weak bet on the turn was key; I don't think a relatively weak hand of 7s full on that board is going broke unless I bet there to set up the river.

Well, my slighty OT post seems to be headed well OT, to the point where I soon expect this thread moved to some forum I could never find. But let me comment on the whole "coffee controversy," and I'll do it in terms of odds against something happening, to make it at least look somewhat poker-related.

For me to get in trouble, all of the following need to happen:
First, the classroom ban applies (I think) to profs as well, so probably many of them are suffering in silence. And, unless there is administration pressure behind the ban that has been well hidden, to get in trouble I need a prof who is sufficiently "gung-ho" about the ban to interrupt his class to pester me. Figure (generously) 5:1 against here.

Next, after I give him my not-a-lie-but-delibertely-evasive-answer of "my mug contains water," most profs are going to feel that they've fulfilled their obligation, whether or not they truly believe me. I'd have to run into a prof willing to interrupt his teaching and lose classtime in order to physically verify the contents of my mug. I figure 8:1 against here.

Next, the prof would need to be motivated enough to report me for disciplinary action. This is more likely, because if he did the first two steps, he's probably pissed at me. Figure even money.

Then, what happens next? It's not like I'm selling crack or (even worse) plagarizing. For a first offense, I wouldn't expect much more than a stern warning, although since I've publicly stated I'm gonna defy the ban, maybe they'd try to make an example of me. The fact that so much energy has been spent on PR and winning "hearts and minds" suggests that they realize the only way to effect a change is via voluntary compliance; that they can't exactly rule with an iron fist on this one.

Finally, what would be the worst case scenario, if I continue to publicly defy the ban and keep getting caught? If they ever kicked me out, I'd probably be the first person kicked out of a Big Ten school for drinking coffee in 50 years (I mean, it's not like we're Mormons or something.) This would be newsworthy at least throughout the Big Ten, and probably further. I'm so sure the school would not want the publicity that this would be an easily callable bluff.

A final word on is "my mug contains water" a lie or not:
Consider if, instead of drinking coffee, I'm nursing a monster hangover by drinking beer. An astute prof sees I'm half in the bag and challenges me by saying, "does that mug contain alcohol?" I think I'd be forced to lie here, as I don't think there's any way I could honestly deny that a mug of beer "contains alcohol."

So, to be consistent, if a mug of a liquid that's only 5% alcohol "contains alcohol," then surely a mug that's in excess of 95% water could be said to "contain water."

[joepike16]

Ive always been told that its not lying in poker its strategizing.

[cardcounter0]

If you were going to a University instead of a College, I would say that you should get an immediate refund for your "education", since they have obviously failed.

[Fast Eddy]

If you're concerned with ethics and right and wrong, not getting off on technicalities, here are your choices:
A) Don't bring anything other water to class.
B) Bring something other than water and pay the consequences (which is probably just having to dump it out) when caught.

[Colima420]

Good first question (poker one), ridiculous 2nd question (coffee one).

Ok. I won't be so harsh. I actually think that you asked the coffee question not so much because you worry about what to do in school, but rather because you see it as an interesting situation and thinking about it is like philosophy.

Regarding the first question, no one expects anyone to tell "the truth" at the table. If that was the case, then we might as well play with the cards face up.

For the coffee situation, I would just be a pimp. No one is going to tell me what I can or can't drink. I would just take my coffee. If I ever get asked about it, the situation would go something like this:

Teacher : What is that drink that you have there sonny?
Me : My coffee.
Teacher : You can't have coffee here boy.
Me : Who has coffee? I have water.
Teacher : But you just said you have coffee.
Me : This is water and I don't see why we should make a big deal out of this.
Teacher : That's it. Go to the principal's office.

Principal : Boy, why do you have coffee in class?
Me : Sir, I don't have coffee. I just have dark water. And as long as it doesn't interfere with the class, I think we should forget this incident about my water. All I want is to be in class.

Principal : O.k. kid. You are a good guy. Just keep bringing you "water" in a dark container.


Principal to teacher : The kid is only going to bring water just like today.

Teacher to principal : But that wasnt water, it was coffee.

Principal to teacher : It's only coffee if we want it to be coffee. Have a nice day.

Colima 420

[aal113086]

why lie, just ignore the person asking the question