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#1
09-08-2006, 03:57 PM
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A question of ethics (slightly OT)
Just wondered where other people draw the line. Poker is a game of misinformation: it pays to convince your opponent you're weak when strong, and vice versa. Along those lines, I have no qualms about misleading an opponent. However, I never lie at a table, not even about folded hands (which almost everyone does). With that setup, here's my dilemma:
Dealt KK, flop set, turn quads. River 7, making K97K7. I make a weak bet, my HU opponent raises, I push. Opponent thinks a LONG time, says, "You don't have a king, do you?" I acknowlege that I don't, misleading (but not, I believe, lying.) If he had a crafty and devious mind, he'd realise I was telling him I had either 0 or 2 Ks. When he calls (w/ 7s full) and I show, he's spitting mad. I calmly tell him (and am actually backed up by 2 other players) that I told him the literal truth. When I posted this at another site, the reaction ranged from "you're a jerk" to "he had no business asking; feel free to lie outright." (Here's the OT part.) My school just introduced a policy whereby only water is allowed in the classrooms. This is hard on me with my many early classes and am currently drinking coffee and flouting the regs. I figure that noone can conclusively tell what's in my spill-proof mug. But if asked, I need a way to mislead without outright lying. I feel responding "I'm drinking water" is a lie, even though coffee is 95% or more water. I think I'm telling the truth, however, if I respond "my mug contains water" (and hope they don't follow that up with "does it contain water EXCLUSIVELY?)" Just curious where everyone draws the line. 
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#3
09-08-2006, 04:18 PM
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Re: A question of ethics (slightly OT)
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you care about lying, but not about directly breaking a school rule? ~MagicMan [/ QUOTE ] Because the rule in question is a newly enacted and hugely unpopular effort to attempt to eliminate janitors' jobs, plus, with a spill-proof mug, how much damage am I really gonna do? I'd be real surprized to see many profs pushing this one (eating a pizza in class might be different though.) I also didn't particularly care about breaking 55 back in the day (and that's a LAW, not some silly school rule). I also don't lose sleep over playing internet poker, which is (depending on your read of the law) probably somewhat illegal, too.
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#5
09-08-2006, 04:21 PM
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Re: A question of ethics (slightly OT)
Also, I think that caring about lying in a poker hand is silly. However, since you do seem to care, I believe that you are wrong when you think that answering "no" to his question is not a lie. He asked if you had a king, which you do. He didn't ask "Do you have exclusively one king?" Even if he said "Do you have a single king?" the answer would still be yes. Saying "no" is definitely lying, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not. However, it doesn't make you a jerk.
~MagicMan
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#7
09-08-2006, 04:27 PM
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Re: A question of ethics (slightly OT)
I totally respect your desire to undermine stupid school rules with technicalities. We need to think about what they will be asking, verbatim. Is it going to be "What's in your cup?"? In that case, I agree you can say "My cup contains water" without lying, but I think it will be quite obvious that you're being a smartass. However, you're also likely to be faced with "You know that you're only allowed to have water, right?" in which case you can truthfully answer "yes," and if they follow up "Is that water in there?" you can fairly truthfully answer "yes." I'm still debating on that last one.
~MagicMan
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#10
09-08-2006, 04:50 PM
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Re: A question of ethics (slightly OT)
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think that caring about lying in a poker hand is silly. However, since you do seem to care, I believe that you are wrong when you think that answering "no" to his question is not a lie. He asked if you had a king, which you do. He didn't ask "Do you have exclusively one king?" Even if he said "Do you have a single king?" the answer would still be yes. Saying "no" is definitely lying, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not. However, it doesn't make you a jerk. ~MagicMan [/ QUOTE ] Just a final thought on this... Not to parrot Clinton's "It depends on what your defenition of 'is' is," but it all comes down to what opponent is saying by "a king." I would consider "a" to be, essentially, a synonym for "one." If he said, "do you have one king?" (which he never would, of course) I obviously wouldn't be lying (at least not IMO.) The question is whether "a" is sufficiently different from "one" to change a misleading statement into an outright lie. OTOH, if I had $2 and someone asked me, "do you have a dollar?"....it would depend on who was asking [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me, but I feel I'm on far firmer ground than when the ex Prez claimed that oral sex didn't qualify as "sexual relations."
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